25yd shoot'n

[yip]

 we been shoot'n a hillside course with hanging gongs at different yardages, we also have a 25yd range for shoot'n paper. question, which is better fer practice, 25 yd or the hillside course? yardages on the hillside varies from 15-97yards. my opinion is the 25yd, for shoot'n groups, and just where your guns hitting.  whats yours?

[SCLoyalist]

Don't know that one is better than the other, so much as different.   The 25 yd range is more valuable for working up a load and being able to get feedback on how tight you're grouping and where hitting with respect to point of aim.   The hillside range with more variety sounds like more fun and would help keep shooters in a 'flexible mental attitude.'   

[George Sutton]

I do all of my practising at 25 yards. Mostly I shoot the NMLRA six bull target.

Sometimes I shoot at a blank piece of paper then try to hit my first bullet hole.

Centershot

[Daryl]

I have never found 25 yards range to be useful for anything but roughing in sights.   I find 25 yards to be absolutely useless for load development.  Even my 20 bore smoothbore with only 1 sight will make a 1" hole for 5 shots at 25 yards and do that with about any powder charge.
You need more range for load development that is meaningful.  If you only ever shoot at 25 yards, about any load will do- carry on.  If you want good accuracy further out, you need to develope those accuracy loads at longer ranges, minimum 50yards and better yet, 75 to 100yards. Even then, a load that shoots well at 100, might not give the best accuracy at 150 or 200.

Whatever your own needs and expectations are, will dictate the load development range needed.

[kutter]

We like to set up at least one target board at 25m w/4 centers on it.

Makes for some fun off-hand shooting between a couple or 4 people.
...plus you don't have to walk as far to tape up the holes.

Others are at 50 and 100m. They all get a workout
The 25m is also the first stop to get sights (re)alligned, try new load, ect.
They don't always go into the same hole,,at least not for me. So 25m is still fun.

[excess650]

I don't normally shoot groups at less than 50 yards.  I suppose that if sighting a squirrel rifle, 25 yards would be a good distance.  My own rifles have been intended for larger game (since I don't hunt or eat squirrels), so generally sight 1-2" high at 50 yards and check for point of impact at 100 yards.

[yip]

  i know what you guys are saying, but to work on your hold and offhand position wouldn't 25yd be the right medician?

[Daryl]

Taylor and I started off doing most of our shooting at 50 through 300yards with our round ball rifles.  When we finally went to a rendezvous and found most of the paper shooting was at 25 and 50yards, we about cleaned up - it was easy.  So - from that experience, I'd think, if you can practise at 50 or 100, you'd be much better off.

Shooting longer ranges requires your form & load to be more perfect than close in shooting.

Also, shooting close is easier and therefore might develope bad habits that will bite you at longer ranges.

[smylee grouch]

I went to a shoot once that only counted 10s and Xs at 25 yds. 10s were one point and Xs were 2, then all the clangers were 1 to 5 points each depending on the range and size of clangers. Everyone seemed to concentrate a little harder at 25 yds knowing that they had to get atleast a 10 to score any points at that range.     Smylee

[George Sutton]

This discussion is about practice not load development.

One should study the NMLRA shoot results, at 25 yards it takes at least a 48 to win. Shooting a score of 48 at 25 yards consistantly is excellent shooting and is anything but easy.

Remember also that a lot of matches are re-entries some people shoot the same target a number of times trying to top their last score. I would bet money the average shooter would have a hard time beating a score of 45 at 25 yards consistantly.

"One hole groups" at 25 yards should hold up out to 50 yards. The advantage to shooting at 25 yards is that you are less apt to be effected by the wind, mirage etc. One can also see the target better. Bad shooting habits are also easier to evaluate at closer ranges.

If one can shoot a one hole group at 25 yards. He should be a contender at 50 and 100 yards.

The ten ring on a 25 yard six bull measures 7/8" with the X measuring 3/8". The ten ring on the 50 yard buffalo target measures 2 inches with the X measuring 1 one inch.

Over the years I've trained a number of people to shoot flintlock rifles. I taught them all to practice at 25 yards. A number of those people today are excellent riflemen and fierce competitors.

I consider the NMLRA six bull target at 25 yards, the most difficult target to win in a paper aggregate.

Mel Gibson said it all "Aim small, miss small"

Small targets at close range is the best practice for anyone who wants to get good.

Centershot AKA Mr. Flintlock

[yip]

   mr flintlock; thats just what i wanta hear, i heard years ago" hold is everything", you'll learn to call our shots and see the results easier at 25yds. you can hit a gong at 100yds, and don't know where the hit was, its still a hit. shooting at 25yds, you see the impact on the target, and knowing where the sights were when the trigger is touched off is a learning experience.

[bob in the woods]

When I am developing a load, I use 25 yds to get on paper. I shoot from the bench, since I want to know what the rifle can do...not what I can do. Many times loads worked up and shot at the 25 mark, looked very promising,but opened up at 50.    The buffalo at 50 is a tough targetat our club, with more than a few possibles being shot.   I actually shoot a rather light load at the 25 ydoff handtargets since it is accurate enough and doesn't kick much. But it is not a winning load at 50 or100 yds.

[54Bucks]

 I think the short answer to the original question would be to practice at what you want to improve on. If that would be group size at 25 yd. then it would be off a solid bench rest. If the goal is offhand improvement then I would suggest starting at shorter distances and move out as you improve.
 Adding load developement into the mix can make things a little complicated. For example: a poor shooter working up a load while shooting offhand at long range probably will never learn the load his gun likes best. But a skilled shooter who shoots consistently knows when it's the load and not the shooter that caused the results and can pick out the subtle changes better at a longer distance. I think a shooter has to know his abilities. And it's best to bench your gun at the distance where your shooting does not confuse the variations of different loads.
 Quite often I'll look at the big shoot results published in Muzzle Blasts. Yes these guys can shoot! But if you look at the different aggregate scores....even the best shooters have weak areas which shows what the need to pracice at.

[Standing Bear]

In my opinion, practice the long targets and the short ones will take care of them selves.  You don't learn much about reading wind, light and mirage shooting at 25.

Before old eyes when I shot offhand matches seriously, I always practiced just the long targets.  Big bull at 100 and 6 bull at 50.  When time didn't allow a lot of practice, just shot the 100yard.  If I knew the match was going to have critters, I practiced all of those as location of score rings were crucial.  For shilouettes, I only practice 75 and 100.

25 yd six bull par = 45
50 yard 6 bull par = 40
50 yard big bull par = 45
100 yard big bull par = 40

National agg par = 170

On a good day a 175 shooter can shoot 180 with Xs

[Frizzen]

Yep, with what I read here, it's a wonder they still have the 25 yd matches at Friendship.
With what everybody says it's so easy to shoot nothing but 10's all the time, you would think
they would take them out.  I'll ask some questions when I go next June and see if anything is
in the works. Wouldn't be much fun or competion to shoot in a match where everybody shoots
nothing but 10's.

[hanshi]

For my purposes it comes down to the rifle.  With small game rifles (under .40) I sight in at 25 yards as this is a typical distance for squirrels, rabbits and such.  This is the distance I practice at with these small calibers.

I consider 25 yards as useless for the larger calibers (.40 and up) and do my practicing at 50 yards and 100 yards.  100 yards is still a struggle for me with those open sights.  Small prb don't carry that well at longer distances but larger ones do.  Practice past 25yds is crucial if deer hunting is on the agenda.

[Standing Bear]

To win aggregates with targets at 25, 50 and 100 yards, I still believe in practicing the long targets and let the short ones (6 bull at25 and 50 yard big bull) take care of themselves.  If you want to win 25 yard targets  or 25 yard aggregates that is your choice.

Never went to Friendship due to timing, distance and costs.  Did shoot in Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi and Tennessee (Memphis).  Won 4 National Territorrials, 6 state championships, National Agg at Mid South Championship (180-5X) by practicing the long targets.  Most of the time the long targets decide aggregates.

Doesn't count - if you don't shoot mainly 25 yards, you don't know how to shoot, that is, if I read TOF and the other correctly.

[George Sutton]

Today we had our annual shoot for charity. It was 0 degrees F this morning when we started.

This is a classic example of what I'm trying to illustrate. Most of the guys shooting are average shooters/hunters. A few flint shooters but mostly caplocks with one inline.

The Fer Du Lac target we shot at 25 yards. The top score for that target was a 45 the second highest score was 43 then 3rd was 39.

The standing bear target was shot at 50 yards and the top score was 44XX second was 38 and 3rd was 37.

The six bull target was shot off the bench at 50 yards. The top score was 47X  2nd was 44 and 3rd was 38.

The other targets were all novelty targets with the highest score of the day being a 48X.

There were no re-entries. I would bet money that any club with the same group of average shooters, shooting under the same conditions, these scores would be typical.

No one shot a one hole group.

I've been playing this game for a long time and I can count the number of 50's that I've shot over the years and believe me it's not a big number.

T.O.F. let me know if you get any takers. I'll pay half and travel to Friendship to watch the festivities.

Centershot

[Frizzen]

Heck, I'll even take them on with my pistol. They shoot their rifle at the 25 yd 6-Bull target 5 shots
and I will shoot my standard 25 yd pistol target 5 shots. Rifle against pistol, What say?
Just talked to the wife, she wants to get in on the action too.

[roundball]

I like shooting Flintlocks in general so I basically shoot every week until fall hunting seasons start...both for the enjoyment of it, as well as constantly trying to improve my shooting skills...and almost never, never shoot from a bench.
My interest is hunting and shooting enjoyment...virtually all hunting shots in thick woods are 35-50yds, only two have been 60 and 70yds each...and I don't have a local club or participate in 100-200yd shots, etc.  

So I basically live my life in a 50yd world...I find bullseye targets boring so I'm usually changing things up...a few range sessions with full power hunting loads from a typical seated hunting position zeroed at 50yds for deer, and periodically reverify the hold over I need for 75 & 100yds.

25yds for small game and the .40cal shoots so fast & flat it's basically on a string to at least 40yds.

Then I might shoot a few range sessions with rows of 1" stickers on a piece of cardboard at only 20yds...2" at 35yds...3" at 50yds...and 'close' doesn't count, has to be 'in' the sticker...pass / fail.

And some range sessions with a little A-frame and steel hanger plates...2", 6", and 9" at different yardages.

[George Sutton]

Roundball
I love to shoot in the woods, different size targets at different distances pose a different set of problems. Shooting paper can be tedious but If you're good on paper you'll be good in the woods. If it's working for you keep at it. If your shooting for your enjoyment, keep at it.


Most of the deer shot in the State of Maine are shot at 50 yds and under.

I love the guys that say "I can't shoot paper but I'll kill a running deer everytime". They're cousins of the guys that consistantly shoot one hole groups. 

Centershot

[ottawa]

when I first got in to shooting ML we started at 25yrd then moved back to 30yrd and so on till we were at 50yrd the 25yrd got us on paper worked till we had good grouping. then started the moving farther too work up loads and to get used to the distance. should of remembered that when we went out shooting instead of starting at 50yrd the other day still had fun and lots of targets left over if they don't have holes in them there still good right 

[Daryl]

I'd like to come too, Centershot & see the shooting at Friendship - if you'll pay half, then I might be able to go - please send about $2,000.00.   I'll pay the other half so I can attend. How many fella's are you doing this for? Wow - what a guy.

[George Sutton]

Well Daryl I noticed that you thought about taking Frizzen up on his offer to shoot against you with his pistol but you had second thoughts and quickly deleted your post.

If you read the above posts what was said was, that T.O.F.  "would pay for your entry fees at Friendship". I simply offered to pay half of these fees and said I would  come and watch you clean everyone's clock at 25 and 50 yards. I'd like to watch the master at work.

After all it was you who said you can shoot 1" groups at 25 yards with your smoothbore using any powder charge.

My intention was not to demean your shooting skills I just wanted to see you in action.

I apologize, the cold up there must make your skin thin.

Centershot

[T*O*F]

please send about $2,000.00.   I'll pay the other half so I can attend.

What are you, a Holiday Inn queen?  A week at Friendship is one of the cheapest vacations you can take.  There are camping spots, hot showers, and a cafeteria on site and the prices are minimal.  No doubt people on this list would buy you a lunch or two.  Since you do rendezvous, you obviously have all the required gear.  A truck, a trailer, and two friends to share expenses, it would probably cost you less than $1000 each. 

You split the driving time and drive straight thru.  The only stops you make are for fuel where you change drivers, use the facilities and grab a snack or drink.  I've driven from Chicago to Oregon and Seattle, both in less than two days by myself and have driven from Memphis to San Francisco several times in the last couple of years.  You guys are all retired....what else have you got to do?