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Author Topic: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine  (Read 7741 times)

Offline Shreckmeister

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Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« on: December 18, 2011, 04:16:36 AM »
Not really an accoutrement, but part of the fur trade era.  I was hoping someone
with detailed knowledge of these might be able to enlighten me on this piece?
Stamped HB with the beaver and HB again smaller, hallmarked and stamped
Quebec at the bottom.  Coral glass beads.  The camera made them look red but they are bright orange.  Also wanting to know what a
triangular shaped piece of silver with a hole in the top marked HB & Montreal
might be used for.  Was it a trade piece or have some specific use?  Were they worn
around the neck?

« Last Edit: December 20, 2011, 01:45:12 AM by suzkat »
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2011, 04:45:14 AM »
The triangular piece is a trade silver ear ring.

Randy Hedden
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2011, 04:56:30 AM »
Randy, The triangle is 2 and 1/4 inches wide from point to point.  Were the
earrings that big?
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2011, 06:49:26 AM »
I don't know about that size, but smaller triangles, probably well over an inch in size were worn as earings. Some ear wheels, (round ear rings), were 2 inches or over in diameter.  Even large circular silver trade brooches, two inches or more in diameter were worn as ear rings.  Perhaps the large triangle was worn as a necklace?

I believe the Hudson Bay Company had makers in Montreal and Quebec make trade silver for the company.  My trade silver books are packed away, but it is not uncommon for trade silver to be marked HB for the Hudson Bay Company.

Randy Hedden
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2011, 08:51:28 PM »
Maybe a nose ring??
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2011, 09:50:04 PM »
I see in robt griffings book of f and i war paintings most of the indians are wearing them in their ears and nose....looks like my answer thanks
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Offline Tim Crosby

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2011, 10:35:01 PM »
Quote from: Randy Hedden on December 18, 2011, 04:45:14 AM
The triangular piece is a trade silver ear ring.

Randy Hedden


 What triangular piece? I must be missing something, wouldn't be the first time.

  Tim C.
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2011, 10:40:34 PM »
Quote from: Tim Crosby on December 18, 2011, 10:35:01 PM
Quote from: Randy Hedden on December 18, 2011, 04:45:14 AM
The triangular piece is a trade silver ear ring.

Randy Hedden


 What triangular piece? I must be missing something, wouldn't be the first time.

  Tim C.

Tim,

In the first post of this thread Suzkat asked:

"Also wanting to know what a
triangular shaped piece of silver with a hole in the top marked HB & Montreal
might be used for.  Was it a trade piece or have some specific use?  Were they worn
around the neck?"

He didn't show a picture of the triangular piece.  My post was in answer to that question.

Randy Hedden
« Last Edit: December 18, 2011, 10:41:55 PM by Randy Hedden »
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2011, 01:46:51 AM »
There is a makers mark on this.  I wonder if anyone could identify it if I blew it up?
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Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2011, 02:21:23 AM »
Not to say anything definitively, but that image looks suspicially like the "Artifakes" that show up by the dozens in various antique shop and flea markets here in the mid-west...they usually appear in one amazing sales case along with pipe axes, flint points, big knives, trade bead necklaces and fancy collared peace medals...many are in their own little display type boxes, and come complete with an aged looking typed description o f the item, and all have faux marks...if your cross is being sold at such a place I might ask a few questions about its authenticity f you can get ahold of the owner...I only mention it because I have seen many such crosses & etc in the local antique shops specializing on such items...I dont know where they are coming from, but I dont think its the HB co., and they always cost alot of money, but never what similar truly authentic pieces cost.
tca
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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2011, 03:28:37 PM »


Quote from: suzkat on December 20, 2011, 01:46:51 AM
There is a makers mark on this.  I wonder if anyone could identify it if I blew it up?



Suzkat , one of the rarest pieces of trade silver is a cross such as this and I have seen a very few that were undoubtedly authentic. In most every case it was a dug piece.
Quite a few crosses similar to what you show are floating around. I've seen a number of them go through ebay and various auctions. The old beads are used in association with new silver to make the piece seem more authentic. The beads are fairly readily available and not that valuable in and of themselves.
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2011, 06:10:24 PM »
Yep, I returned the item.  Thank you very much for your heads up on this.  ???
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Offline blackdave

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2011, 06:34:05 PM »
I have been dealing in artifacts for 25+ years and run like a scalded dog anytime I see a conjoined HB mark on a piece.  99.9% of the time it is faked.  Original Hudson Bay Company marks were different and changed over the years.  As earlier posted, trade silver crosses are very rare and I have never seen one marked like that in person or in books.

Check the website  http://furtradetomahawks.tripod.com/id20.html  for a good description of faked Hudson Bay marks.  I realize the site is dealing with edged weapons and tools, but the marks are the same.  Good move returning the piece.

Your humble servant,

Just Dave
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Offline Shreckmeister

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2011, 03:32:59 AM »
Tc albert I owe you a debt of gratitude... I thought I had the real deal... fortunately for me the auction was guaranteed 100 percent... and I got out of this thing with my skin... thanks for helping a guy out... I owe you 1... and the rest you guys too for that matter
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Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual.

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Hudson Bay Cross of Lorraine
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2011, 07:04:24 PM »
Merry Christmas Suzkat...twas a pleasure...thats what this site is all about.
tc
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