Author Topic: rifles versus smoothbores  (Read 35491 times)

Offline Dphariss

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rifles versus smoothbores
« on: December 23, 2011, 05:06:11 AM »
William Bartram walked all around GA, TN and FL in 1776 and in his own words says he carried a fusil...............  So really I would suggest that whichever gun you want....would be right!!   :o ;D ;D ;D

This begs the question: Was he alone? If not how was his companion(s) armed?


This is from "Incidents Attending The Capture, Detention, and Ransom of Charles Johnston of Virgina".


There was another quote from the same text telling how the natives loaded him with booty including a very heavy rifle barrel apparently going down the Ohio to be made into a rifle? Match or Wall Gun maybe?

He stated all the natives were rifle armed. Probably not 100% accurate but certainly not completely in error either. Most of the tribes noted were rifle users.


Then the story of the party of smoothbore armed Frenchmen shooting numerous shots at turkeys roosted in a tree killing nothing but powder (and wasting lead) and advertising their location everyone within hearing. This was related on a web site and I have no idea the actual citation for it but I found it amusing.

The smoothbore was extremely limited in its effectiveness as used in the 18th century and the early 19th. Largely due to NO CHOKE, POOR WADS and POOR SHOT in many cases  which made it marginal with small shot. With a round ball it would have been range limited.

So far as quoting people using smoothbores or doing a great many things that might be read about, some of which I think "that was stupid", like getting killed staying behind to do some chore when everyone else hightails it for the stockade. Lots of people went to the frontier and died from numerous reasons. Some from bad luck, some from poor equipment, some from poor preparation, some from stupidity or not being able to actually function or deal with reality when the reality turned a little too real... Like when trying to counter a rifle armed native at 100-150 yards with the fusil that was cheaper than a rifle.... At 100 yards without a another person as a "safety" a miss is good for hand to hand combat with someone who kills people for fun or getting run down and killed or captured and then burnt at the stake.  Its not a "gee what would be historically correct" in this context.
The smooth bore is inferior, in this context, to the rifle in all but linear battlefield tactics. This was repeatedly proven to be the case. From Morgan's Riflemen at Saratoga driving the British scouts behind the pickets and most of them all the way back to Canada, to Pierre's Hole and other western "firefights" where the rifle armed trappers generally inflicted heavy losses on the fusil armed natives with, little or no loss to themselves in many cases.
But lots of people had and used them but lots of people were pretty secure and only had a firearm because then were forced to it. So the cheap fusil or a musket was a good choice for someone in Philadelphia or Williamsburg to make militia requirements. But out in some cabin on the frontier it was not the best choice for reasons related by myself and others.

Dan
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Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #1 on: December 23, 2011, 02:21:07 PM »
Jeesh Dan!!   :o  Next time I go in harms way I want a tank with a 30mm gatling gun mounted on it.... no peashooter .5.56 mm for me!!!  ::) ::) 

I don't think anyone is arguing the value of rifle vs fusil or their capabilities..... only availability and possibility of presence in the relatively settled Chesapeake region.  You know..... a young man from there might be enamored of wing shooting....or distance target shooting...... which might lead him to buy one or the other......  Economics do come into play.....how many come here asking foe a $500 flintlock???

Even Daniel Boone had a fowling piece in his arsenal in KY and used it at the Battle of Blue Licks according to Nathan Boone.

Its fun to speculate and it seems that it is a topic in which one can find evidence to support just about any position depending on date and location....Have fun with your selection....study it a while and buy what you like...then buys a second one that is different..... you will never break the habit!!   ;D ;D ;D
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Offline Model19

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rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #2 on: December 23, 2011, 02:45:40 PM »
Very interesting discussion, and one that really has no right or wrong answer IMHO.  A person, back then just as now, probably bought what was available locally in their price range.  They had no Cabela's or internet to study or peruse endlessly and offering almost unlimited choices.  Another possibility was that this (insert type/style) was in the family already from dear old dad so that's what you used because it was there and it was free. 
 The combat effectiveness drift is always fun to think about too, and I'll add this to the discussion since it happened to two of my great-greats.   One to three settlers, voyageurs, etc., no matter if armed with fowler, rifle or what have you for a firearm, were dead meat if attacked/jumped by a larger gang of natives bent on murder and destruction.  Once you get your one shot off at your foe as he closes the distance you will not have time to reload, and if you miss, his skills with his handheld weapons and superior numbers will guarantee your untimely demise when he closes to striking distance.  Even if all our hero's hit with their first shots, if there are equal or greater number of foes left and still closing my bet would be on the bad guys.  Club to the head from a practiced and red-misted native trumps terrified empty gun wielding settler pretty much every time. And of course, if they attacked from different angles...  but I go on too long.  The Skulking way of war was not our invention.
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Offline Pete G.

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rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #3 on: December 23, 2011, 05:37:36 PM »
I have and old family gun that has two barrels, a rifled one and a smooth one.

Now what ?

Offline Dphariss

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rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #4 on: December 23, 2011, 07:47:27 PM »
Jeesh Dan!!   :o  Next time I go in harms way I want a tank with a 30mm gatling gun mounted on it.... no peashooter .5.56 mm for me!!!  ::) ::)  

I don't think anyone is arguing the value of rifle vs fusil or their capabilities..... only availability and possibility of presence in the relatively settled Chesapeake region.  You know..... a young man from there might be enamored of wing shooting....or distance target shooting...... which might lead him to buy one or the other......  Economics do come into play.....how many come here asking foe a $500 flintlock???

Even Daniel Boone had a fowling piece in his arsenal in KY and used it at the Battle of Blue Licks according to Nathan Boone.

Its fun to speculate and it seems that it is a topic in which one can find evidence to support just about any position depending on date and location....Have fun with your selection....study it a while and buy what you like...then buys a second one that is different..... you will never break the habit!!   ;D ;D ;D

Heh heh!
This is one of my favorite subjects so I tend to run on. I feel its a valid and interesting subject.
There are those who like to point to the numbers of guns owned. There are accounts of guns picked in areas, on the battlefield and from residents of the area as well it would seem, that show the rifle as a 10-20% of the total.
But then we go back to the "gun owner/shooter/rifleman" thing again.
I suspect that a lot of the guns used to conform to militia laws were seldom if ever shot in the more civilized areas. For one thing a musket bore arm takes a LOT of lead. About 2.5 times + as much as a 50 caliber rifle will. So someone who USED a firearm, might have both is forced to it. muskets were cheap from what I have read.
Poor could not afford rifles? This idea will not withstand research.


Now someone working as a clerk or cobbler in an eastern City has no real use for a musket or a rifle, except for the law. And if he owns one probably never shoot it unless ordered to at some muster.
The person living on the edges of "civilization" has a different outlook and different needs in a firearm.
That rifles were popular on the frontier is not disputable. By the 1790s there are accounts of people being made fun of for getting off a boat on the Ohio with a nothing but a fowling piece.  But I cannot find the citation right now.
So now we must then ask what arms got the most actual use.
People need to read the "Frontier Rifleman" by Richard B. LaCrosse, Jr. and "Colonial Riflemen in The American Revolution" by Huddleston. The chapters on Indian arms and Loyalist Riflemen in "British Military Flintlock Rifles" by Bailey are worth the price of the book to me.
The argument is repeatly put forward that the smoothbore is more versatile. I consider it far LESS versatile. Its range limited, the typical smoothbore today will shoot groups at 50 yards that an identical rifle will equal at 150 or 200. The smoothbore of the TIME was far less efficient with small shot, poor shot quality, wadded with tow and no choke. Hunters to today generally use choked barrels to make the gun usuable. Something that was UNKNOWN prior to the 1830s/40s and apparently not in general use until the advent of the breechloading shotgun.
So people shoot modern wads, choked bores and nice hard round modern shot to prove how useful the 18th century shotgun was  ??? ::)
In reality a small gauge smoothbore 40-24 to the pound with no choke is pretty useless for small game past about 25 yards. Its even worse when shooting flying birds.
Going to a larger bore size greatly increases the consumption of powder and lead.
With a solid ball a 50 caliber smooth rifle may not be accurate enough with light loads to reliably kill a squirrel at 25 yards.  The one I built for a test bed was pretty random at 25 with 75 grains of powder but shot well at 50 (4.5") with 100 gr. But 100 grains is silly for shooting small game. It patterned OK with 75 gr of powder and equal volume of shot at 25 but again this is a lot of powder and lead for a Squirrel.
Then we have to ask the question are we choosing the ML using the same criteria that our forefathers did.
Do we need a gun just as part of a costume (think "militia musters") do we need it to protect and feed ourselves?
For many today is a fad or costume thing.  Few look at it any deeper than that. Some hunt with them and shoot them in competition true. I am sure some guns of the 18th century were fashion statements as well especially with the more affluent in the settled areas and large cities.
But out where the rubber met the road there were other criteria. Need, skill, eyesight were all factors.
Then we have the actual use. What arms saw the most use? Rifle matches were common so the actual shots fired the rifle may have saw more actual use while the smoothbore was in a closet an its owner was staying home drinking cider or perhaps drinking cider while watching the rifle match. Another thing rifle matches were generally shot from a rest. Not off hand. So it was not a good game to play without a rifle.
Boone's fowling piece at Blue Licks was apparently an anomaly for Boone. I would hesitate to assume he owned it unless specifically stated. He may have had an unserviceable rifle and this was all he could get to use or he may have taken it as a choice over a rifle, but I doubt it. No way to know at this date.
I need to make about 6 breech plugs today, or at least get a start, so I will sign off.
Dan
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 07:22:47 PM by Dphariss »
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Joe S

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2011, 02:52:19 AM »
Six breech plugs?  That’s going to be one heavy swivel gun!

Daryl

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2011, 09:54:22 PM »
Good points, Dan, considering the shot and/or wadding used back then. Today, we do have good shot, good hard sealing wads, know what sort of patching to use with round balls to obtain good accuracy with a smoothbore - probably in many instances, equal to many rifles of their day at 50yards- today as well.  Accuracy beyond 50 yards with a smoothbore requires very careful attention to details such as good balls perfectly patched with carefully loaded and worked up powder charges.

Even then, a decent rifle makes a smoothbore look pretty sad at 100, however a poorly loaded rifle will generally not beat a well loaded smoothbore at that range - today. That, I've seen many times in contests, trail walks and my own personal testing.  Much past 100 - well, it's a no-hitter for the smoothbore - generally.  At longer ranges, the smoothbore shooter will hit and be just like monkey and the typewriter who will, sooner or later, type a word.

Thus, we have to look at the smoothbores back then as opposed to how they are loaded with all the improvments and as technology allows today - as Forsyth would have said.  Did they have the technology to use those tecniques we use today?

 Most likely not, it's written they used bare undersized balls with something to prevent the ball from falling out - like a military or military-type ctg., which lends support to Dan's argument/differences between then and now.

How versitile are or were they - yet "Fireams of the American West" showed in earlier days, the smoothbores, ie: shotguns were scorned, yet shotguns were increasing in popularity when carried by civilians through the 1830's and later and became preferred arms. Why?  We know from the written word, they used a great amount of buck shot, not fine shot, although finer shot most likely was used as well. 

The use of heavy buckshot loads was the norm in the 1800's. Even the military had both a 9 ball and a 15 ball loads of 0 or 00 in their ctgs. for the .69 calibre muskets - night duty mostly, along with the buck and ball load which had only 3 buck shot.

In military use the rifle didn't replace the smoothbore musket entirely, until the advent of the successful modification of the original Minnie patent - the 1842 was the last of the muskets.  Many of those were later rifled for the minnie.

Offline Longknife

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #7 on: December 25, 2011, 01:13:30 AM »
I don't think any one can argue that the rifle is significantly more accurate than the smoothbore if you are counting X's or shooting at extended ranges, but consideration again has to be made for the circumstances under which said firearm is being used. Dan is a strong advocate of the rifles superiority but he also lives in a western state where long shots (at least long for us easterners) are the norm. I ran a woods walk for a local club for several years here in wooded country of Illinois.  All the targets were life size  and I tried to make it as realistic as possible. Contestants were not told the location of the targets but had to find them on their own and dispatch them quickly before the "time" ran out. The ranges were as little as 20 yards up to 100 yards. 100 yards was about the MAX you could see in these woods, and then a bit of clearing of brush had to be made to do that.  Most targets were steel hit and miss that could be scored easily but there were several life size cut outs (wood or cardboard)that were marked with a "kill zone" on the back and they were scored accordingly. There were even a few moving targets that had to be hit on "on the run". Four man teams were sent into the course with a judge , they were to find the targets, shoot (or not) and return under a certain amount of time. There were rifle teams and smoothbore teams and combo teams and I have to tell you this, those smoothbores scored right up there with the rifles and often won the match. This is my personal experience and that leads me to believe that a smoothbore could be a formidable weapon on the easter frontier, now if I cross the Missippi that may be whole 'nuther game----  
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 01:21:32 AM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Daryl

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #8 on: December 25, 2011, 01:53:20 AM »
I agree Ed - in the East and loaded as we load them today.

On the other hand, load a 20 bore with a loose .54 cal. ball and see how it does - or more typically, a .69 musket with a .64 loose ball - maybe a military ctg. with .64 ball. The full military charge in the ctg. was 165gr. of powder and see how it goes. Of course, a person could take the ctg. apart and 'save' some powder from it for shot loads, I suppose.

The speculation is fun.

« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 01:53:48 AM by Daryl »

Offline Longknife

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #9 on: December 25, 2011, 06:14:47 PM »
Yea, but I guess we really don't know how they loaded them. I know the military loaded loose paper carts., a different game completely, but how did a civilian load theirs? They were free to do as they wanted or what ever worked best for them. If they hunted deer sized (or man sized) game with a single round ball in a smoothbore and couldn't hit the target I'm sure they would figure out why or starve or die at the hands of some unknown foe!!!??? I can't imagine why anyone would venture into the wildeness with a firearm that couldn't hit the intended target...then---or now......Ed

  
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 06:18:02 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #10 on: December 25, 2011, 08:37:38 PM »
Gentlemen,

An interesting and unending argument, no doubt.

I have recently given a smoothbore (smooth rifle) a fairly extensive workout and can say that I'm disappointed in it's general utility. It will be re-barreled with a rifled barrel this winter.

I'm not requiring a "personna" so my equipment must work for the purpose, i.e. meat in the freezer and of course some consideration given to the larger varmints that frequent my neck of the woods. A rifle is what I need. The fast reloading question is answered with a pistol in the same caliber.

In the context of a hunter/trapper, West or East, I don't feel that enough emphasis has been given to the ability of the rifle to require less powder and lead to secure more meat over a wide range of circumstances. One accurate shot that brings down a deer or elk is much preferable to repeated shots on smaller game, especially when one is trying to keep his location secret from others. The eastern long hunter and later western fur trapper were for the most part, poachers. Not revealing a position through repeated shots is/was the Golden Rule for one engaging in this sort of activity. An interesting and related aside is that now in many areas with high concentrations of grizzlies, repeated shots can almost guarantee a visit from Old Ephraim. This has happened with increasing frequency in the Cody area to the point of almost being a given and some of the results have not been pretty. It is pleasantly ironic that in 2011 one must begin to think more and more as if it was 1800 when he leaves the road...

Furthermore, in armed conflict, distance equals safety. The rifle provides distance. I won't argue the usefulness of a Brown Bess charged with buck and ball and carrying a bayonet at close quarters. Personally, I would prefer to not get into close quarters. A rifle can provide that option.

As I said before, I'm not interested in the re-enactment of battles or sieges. I prefer actual woods-running. Those who need to portray a character from the past and do the necessary historical research will find my comments irrelevant. I tend to study old ways of doing things in the context of "what would I do if I were there and in that circumstance?" For me, this is the rewarding part of mastering old technology. It also helps to provide clarity on many overworked and confusing topics.

Steve

Offline Dphariss

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #11 on: December 25, 2011, 09:15:27 PM »
Yea, but I guess we really don't know how they loaded them. I know the military loaded loose paper carts., a different game completely, but how did a civilian load theirs? They were free to do as they wanted or what ever worked best for them. If they hunted deer sized (or man sized) game with a single round ball in a smoothbore and couldn't hit the target I'm sure they would figure out why or starve or die at the hands of some unknown foe!!!??? I can't imagine why anyone would venture into the wildeness with a firearm that couldn't hit the intended target...then---or now......Ed

  

This is something people don't take into consideration nearly enough.
People who make bad decisions and die don't write about it.
People who write about stuff may not have been the best source. But they wrote about it. Right, wrong or in between its all we have many times.
Many people who were actually out doing things did not write about it.
But for the researcher/re-enactor this is too inconvenient to consider.
They need to have hard documentation. I look at it from the "does this actually work" stand point.

Read "Incidents Attending The Capture, Detention, and Ransom of Charles Johnston of Virginia".  He and his companion were both armed with "nothing better " then ordinary fowlers. The "nothing better" description speaks VOLUMES if we READ it and THINK.
But ultimately nothing could have overcome the stupidity some of their companions talked them into.
But they had smoothbores just the same and even he did not apparently think this was the best choice. But neither he or his employer were what one would call hunters or frontiersmen. But he wrote about it.
Nor does having a rifle make someone a rifleman. I suspect that most of the population of the American Colonies in 1776 was incapable of using a rifle proficiently if someone gave them one, at least not without some instruction and practice.

The smoothbore simply did not work all that well in the woods, if it did then Morgan would not have been as effective at Saratoga and the British Scouts would have staid active.
But if you were not proficient with forearms because you had no interest in learning or your only reason for having a firearm was militia then the SB is as good as anything, the military dogma/training was simply point and fire anyway.

But if you are out on the frontier and have a native in a tree 200 yards or even 300 out shooting over the stockade walls you better have something that will counter the threat. There is no SB that can be fired from the shoulder that will do this.
I keep using it because its a CLASSIC example of rifle vs SB in non-linear warfare. Morgan's Riflemen vs the Canadian and Indian Scouts working for Burgoyne.  As it was Burgoyne's only effective counter was the small force of German Riflemen. They were too few to make any real difference.
 If we read "The Frontier Rifleman" pg 75 we find a quote by Col. James Smith stating the French had the same problem with the natives when confronted by rifle armed Virginians who "treed" and put accurate fire on the natives. "The indians concluded they would go to their hunting..." they cited the "long knives" as the reason. Redcoats they could deal with, the riflemen they would prefer not to face.

These natives understood something a lot of ML "enthusiasts" seem to have missed, ONLY HITS COUNT. If you miss in warfare in the forest you may not need to load the gun again if you are alone as many people on the frontier were. 10 or 20 men cannot effectively "scout". It takes 1 to maybe 5-6 to stay stealthy.

In the current "gaa-gaa" enthusiasm for the smoothbore much of this sort of information is ignored since it interferes with what people want to do. Nothing to do with firearms use, nothing to do with reduced cost of ammuntion or increased effectiveness so long as they can "document" it to their  "persona" its what they want, especially if they can buy a made in India "gun" for 2-300 bucks. Less than they would pay for a good coat....  That a great many of these people never shoot the thing anyway, it only being a necessary "prop", surely influences the choice.

I like to do real stuff. I like to shoot rifle matches with MLs. I like to hunt with FLs. I will dress "period" if I have to to attend some event. But attending events is not why I have a ML it never was. I think that this is the major difference between me and re-enactors. My interest is the firearm. Their interest is dressing up to play a part. In this the SB works just fine.

How did they load the smoothbore?  Consider this. Rate of fire and less wiping were mentioned as advantages for the smoothbore. Loading it with a tight ball and patch makes it as slow to load as the rifle. So we have to ask did they patch them? Not likely in my opinion. But this may have varied with the shooter.
We hear of blanket wadding being used by natives in the west, this from Mtn Man Joe Meek. Having the "blanket wads" flying past him.

Dan
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Daryl

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #12 on: December 25, 2011, 09:58:34 PM »

How did they load the smoothbore?  Consider this. Rate of fire and less wiping were mentioned as advantages for the smoothbore. Loading it with a tight ball and patch makes it as slow to load as the rifle. So we have to ask did they patch them? Not likely in my opinion. But this may have varied with the shooter.
We hear of blanket wadding being used by natives in the west, this from Mtn Man Joe Meek. Having the "blanket wads" flying past him.

Dan
 

That is quite interesting. I now remember reading that - possibly in the NAPR magazine.  Being able to use and using a blanket for wadding (patches?) showed just how small the ball's were, but we knew that already. 


Watching a smoothbore ball's flight with binoculars is also enlightening. If the light is right, they're quite visible. Looking down the horn of a trombone comes to mind.

 

Offline Dphariss

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #13 on: December 25, 2011, 10:56:42 PM »
One other thing.
I have no animosity to the SB really.
Its people trying the rewrite physics or give them attributes that can't be shown in actual practice, to make them into something they are not that gets me started.
But then a friend of mine tells me he killed 3 white tails with one shot from a buck and ball load (heavy on the buck) from a 20 bore ;D
He only had one tag  :o  
Two of them he claims were not even that close to the intended target.
I would expect that large buck in a 20 bore would scatter pretty good.

Dan
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 10:57:25 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2011, 11:42:14 PM »
I did an inventory search of a five year period (1748-1752) on a central VA county (not really frontier). Smooth guns outnumbered rifles two to one. That says two things to me for that area. Like most every other place in this country at that time the smooth gun was predominant. It also shows a good rifle presence in the period.
Smooth guns were more appropriate for line purposes on military standpoint. They were also a cheaper alternative for a civilian arm. Cheap initial purchase with high maintenance is still present today. Go buy a cheap item that runs on batteries and its sometimes cheaper to buy another item than replace the batteries.
For the period, before and after, when accuracy with a single projectile was needed, a rifle was the best option and also was more efficient.
Smoothbores are lumped into a single category today because of the way they are presently used. There were muskets, fowling pieces, waterfowling pieces, coach guns, etc. And they all had special applications that a rifle could not fill. These same guns were also used for other applications when a rifle could have been the better choice and preferred because of their prominence, price, availability, etc.
There is a ton of documetation in form of writings, surviving old arms still loaded, dug arms still loaded to show that wadding a ball in a smooth gun was the order of the day.
To date, and to my feeble knowledge, there is only one found piece of documentaion to suggest a patch might have been used in a smooth gun but it is not spelled out enough to make the call.

Offline Jim Hart

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #15 on: December 26, 2011, 11:14:33 PM »
Peter Skene Ogden, in charge of a Hudson's Bay Company fur brigade, while in what is now northeastern California wrote in his daily journal on Sunday, January 29th 1827
"We are indebted to the late American Fur Company for introducing rifles on the Columbia.  From a gun of 10 shots, 1 only kills.  There is a waste of ammunition:  course now N.N.W." 
In other writings he notes of rifles being used to deter and defeat indian attacks in the same area.

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #16 on: December 26, 2011, 11:57:36 PM »
Nothing will deter my love for the fowler and his gun! Rifles are boring! ;D...Yep,I'm back. Operation seems to be a success.
 Dan,here in BC we have a fiercely competitive branch of smoothy shooters and I love being a part of that! We all know that rifles outshoot the knuckleballers because most of us are/were good rifle shots.It's the fun of the competition and camaraderie amongst similar type gunners that "make" it for me. Yep, a whole different band of pigmies!LOL!!!

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #17 on: December 27, 2011, 03:12:53 AM »
Guys,

One of my fondest memories was at the local shooting range when I outshot two friends who were using modern muzzle loading rifles - Thompson Centers I think.  When they asked me what caliber my gun was I was able to tell them a 0.47 caliber smoothbore.  I could barely keep from breaking into a huge grin at the look on their faces.

However, like the old man said - even a blind hog finds an acorn every once in a while.

Jim

dannybb55

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #18 on: December 27, 2011, 04:46:55 AM »
I wonder why all of those smooth bored trade guns were brought in for centuries?

Offline rich pierce

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #19 on: December 27, 2011, 05:13:29 AM »
We make judgments about what sort of firearm would best serve our purposes if we were in situation X at time Y in place Z.  But period folk did not always have those options.  Trade guns to indigenous poeple were meant to be produced at minimal cost, for maximal profit, and yet to be attractive to them.  The smoothbore trade guns were considered an advantage over primitive arms, and proved to be. The Iroquois became dominant only when they became armed by the Dutch with smoothbore trade guns.  Before they ever saw or heard of a rifle (pre-1700) they wiped out the Huron and other nations competing with them for the fur trade.

In what is now Canada, the rifle never did catch on with Native peoples much before cartridge guns became available.  Somehow they lived before firearms, and then lived with smoothbore trade guns quite well.  A .62 round ball at 40 yards probably works quite well on moose or caribou.  Would a .54 caliber rifle work better, for less cost in poweder and ball?  no doubt, but they simply were not on the trading blanket, and would have cost 2-3 times what the trade gun cost.

It's fun to discuss what would be better in situation X, etc but if it was unavailable at that time and place, it's an intellectual exercise.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 05:14:38 AM by rich pierce »
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Offline Belleville

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #20 on: December 27, 2011, 08:14:30 AM »
There are a lot of things to consider in this discussion on rifle vs smoothbore. Such as the French had a smoothbore tradition and to a lesser extent so did the British. New England had a smothbore culture. Rifles were produced generally from PA south and went west. People including the Indians near to the rifle producing areas had a tendency to prefer rifles.

Another consideration is eyesight. Today if physically and economically possible most people have corrected vision. Not so in the 18thc and the Indians who have a tendency to be near sighted had little access to eyeglasses such as they were. As you age you may find a smoothbore with heavy shot more effective than a rifle when you cannot see the rifle sights. A smoothbore with buck shot is more effective than a rifle in a canoe, if you don't believe it try shooting a rifle from a canoe and you will see the point.

By the end of the Rev. War the rifle companies were mainly defuncted as not being practial. It took about as many musketmen with bayonets to protect the riflemen as there were riflemen.

If carrying a rifle you had to carry all the rifle balls you might need and/or carry the mold, as there was little chance of finding the correct ball size away from home. With a smoothbore there were more opportunties to find ammo that would go down the barrel. I recall the Indians being issued larger caliber musket ammo on one occasion. They sat around beating on the balls with the back side of their tomahawks to make them oblong to where they would fit their smaller bored trade guns.

If you lived/live in bear country you best be loaded for bear.

Just a few things to consider.

Doc S.

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #21 on: December 27, 2011, 08:41:48 AM »
We make judgments about what sort of firearm would best serve our purposes if we were in situation X at time Y in place Z.  But period folk did not always have those options.  Trade guns to indigenous poeple were meant to be produced at minimal cost, for maximal profit, and yet to be attractive to them.  The smoothbore trade guns were considered an advantage over primitive arms, and proved to be. The Iroquois became dominant only when they became armed by the Dutch with smoothbore trade guns.  Before they ever saw or heard of a rifle (pre-1700) they wiped out the Huron and other nations competing with them for the fur trade.

In what is now Canada, the rifle never did catch on with Native peoples much before cartridge guns became available.  Somehow they lived before firearms, and then lived with smoothbore trade guns quite well.  A .62 round ball at 40 yards probably works quite well on moose or caribou.  Would a .54 caliber rifle work better, for less cost in poweder and ball?  no doubt, but they simply were not on the trading blanket, and would have cost 2-3 times what the trade gun cost.

It's fun to discuss what would be better in situation X, etc but if it was unavailable at that time and place, it's an intellectual exercise.

You seem to be missing some things here.
The traders and the military did not want the natives anywhere to have rifles. Its well documented from the 1750s.
It was bad for trade and bad in how the natives made war. It cost the traders money and it was dangerous if the natives turned "unfriendly".
The numbers of rifles that the traders handled was surely fewer that those obtained from other sources. Capture and trade with other than the "traders" who kept records.
The rifle requires more education and dedication on the part of the user.
Some tribes were better at understanding this than others. Or at least this seems to be the case.
Considering the number of people to this day that can't shoot a flintlock well enough to feed themselves even with skilled FL shooters telling them in detail how to make it work the FL rifle is not for everyone.  If the person cannot shoot with 12" at 50 yards he has little use for a rifle. This has to be taken into account as well. If the person cannot shoot well enough to take advantage of the rifle the extra cost and weight make it a waste of energy and money.
The Western Indians never really seemed to understand aimed fire even in the 1870s. They seemed to believe that if they put enough feathers and brass tacks on the gun and maybe made medicine over it they were good to go. In thinking about the natives firearms use we also have to consider the "trade point" arrow points that the traders foisted off on the natives. These things surely saved the lives of many Western trappers, Jim Bridger for one, maybe people in the east as well. He was shot in the back TWICE and the points, though near 3" long, never penetrated to the chest cavity. Had the native been using flint or Obsidian points he would probably never have lived to the have the points cut out some years later. They were really poor points, dead soft and dull as well, but the natives used them anyway, they were metal so the had to be good. Is this a recommendation for the modern archer to use them for hunting? East or West?  I look at their use of the trade gun the same way. Its not based on an informed consumer. In fact the traders went to great lengths to KEEP the consumer ignorant and poorly armed if at all possible.
See Joe Meek's description of the ambush he rode into, so close that the wads were flying past him and they STILL missed. They nicked his horse in the root of the mane and the horse went down but regained his feet and got in motion about the time the natives reached them.
Now would this have ended as well with one of the eastern tribes described
by John Barnham in 1756?
"...they commonly now shoot with rifles with which they will at great distance from behind a tree...take such sure aim as seldom miseth their mark."
Maybe, but the chances are not as good.
Of course more natives had SBs. Its historical fact. But this does not somehow make the SB something it is not.
But if you have been making war with a 40 pound pull bow and a stone headed war club  a trade gun may seem like a laser beam.
The SB is a limited weapon of war and a limited weapon for hunting speaking in the 18th century context. In CERTAIN specific situations its superior, but overall it is not. If it were the RIFLE WOULD HAVE DIED OUT and all those "squirrel rifles" made in the 19th century would NEVER HAVE EXISTED. This ALONE proves the shotgun is INFERIOR for hunting small game. IF the rifle owner can shoot very well at all.

Today more and more shotguns made for deer hunting are RIFLED to shoot slugs. There is a reason for this. Losing deer gut shot or having a leg blown off with a marginally accurate shotgun is "disappointing" and its also bad press if its found by someone who hates hunting anyway.
Using the fact that a group of people, recently living exclusively in the stone age, who have no real knowledge of how firearms work or what the differences are from one to another, who are encouraged or forced to use a certain type of arm is not a valid argument as to its efficiency or suitability.
One other thing people like to over look, the smoothbore armed Natives LOST to the rifle armed Europeans, they had their moments now and then but over all they LOST. Yes there were other factors at play, but they still lost, in the forest or on the plains same story. Just like Morgan at Saratoga. The SB armed Canadian Natives and French Canadians could not deal with the riflemen in the forest. Its well documented from the BRITISH SIDE. In the western fur trade they INVARIABLY got shot up badly in any engagement where both sides shot it out 7-8-10 to one or greater casualty rates. Even, as I pointed out at Pierres hole, when the fighting was well within SB range. Their understanding of firearms, in general, was such that a smoothbore was equal to the rifle.
How well the Iroquois did against the Hurons is irrelevant to this discussion unless the Hurons were rifle armed.
The invariably smoothbore armed British lost to patriot forces that were thought to be at least 50% rifle armed 74% of the time according to LaCrosse If the smoothbore is so superior and equally useful and effective how can this be?
When the Rev War was warming up the Girty brothers, living and working with the natives, all acquired new rifles apparently they thought they were a better investment than some cheap, throw away smoothbore trade gun or a musket shooting 12 to 14 to the pound ball.
George Rogers Clark's force was rifle armed and in the face of incredible odds and adversity won. Could they have silenced Vincennes' artillery, though the gun ports with muskets? I doubt it. Morgan's men were the force that silenced Burgoyne's artillery BTW. Sure they were paired with Dearborne's unit, so what? They still sniped a great many people at Saratoga.
And while the American's during the RevWar were reducing the number of rifle's in the field the British were busy INCREASING the number of rifles.  I also wonder if the "no rifles in the patriot army at the end of the Rev-War" is factual. If so why the Contract rifles of the 1790s? It seems that they came to their senses after the war, or in reality the rifle never really went away as we are lead to believe.
Lewis & Clark going on an extended  expedition where they were sure the meet some level of hostility, took rifles and used them almost exclusively. They had at least 17 rifles along. Lewis was shot by one of the "short rifles" while hunting elk, not one of the the magical (according to the modern dogma it seems) SB muskets they had along.

Dan
« Last Edit: December 28, 2011, 07:21:34 PM by Dphariss »
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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #22 on: December 27, 2011, 10:33:25 AM »
Dan.
I don't know about the ratio or rifleman to smooth during the Revolutionary war  but one thing that could impact the ratio is casualties thru the war.  What skill level did people have that joined up later versus those who were there at the start. That could have influenced what they chose or were given more than a change in tactics by the army.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #23 on: December 27, 2011, 07:23:50 PM »

It's fun to discuss what would be better in situation X, etc but if it was unavailable at that time and place, it's an intellectual exercise.

You seem to be missing some things here.
Dan

Oh, I'm not missing much, I pretty much have the drill memorized by now.  I repeat, as always, arguments about the superiority of rifles over smoothbores have no meaning for me whatsoever in the historical context.  If efficiency and suitability for the task at hand is of primary importance, none of us would be shooting flintlocks.  I own and shoot several rifles and a couple smoothbores.  Each has their place in historical context.  For sure, a fella portraying or re-living the lot of a white guy in the fur trade in what is now Wyoming or Montana should be packing a trade rifle.

In the northeast (north of Pennsylvania) there was no big game hunting to speak of south of the St. Lawrence River.  Some deer, at close range.  The Hudson valley fowling pieces, British style fowling pieces, and New England fowling pieces were specifically developed to fit the needs of the locals.  They wanted to kill waterfowl.  No grizzlies, no elk, whatever deer and moose around could be had within 50 yards.  They took the time and effort to make a specific gun for local needs, and the choices were smoothbores.  These were farming communities also involved in the fur trade.  There were no long hunters, no white trappers or explorers.  The Iroquois in the NY state area ranged far and wide for both warfare (their style, low casualty, high efficiency guerilla warfare) and hunting- into the Ohio and Illinois territories, hunting bison and elk.  They acquired rifles and became proficient in their use.

In Pennsylvania and to the south, away from the coast, waterfowling was not as big a deal and there was opportunity to get in on the deer hide trade, and folks came from a rifle-using culture.  There are probably other reasons we don't even know about for the choice of rifles over smoothbores in the Pennsylvania and to the south. And of course with the opening of the west, with entirely different terrain and game patterns, rifles were quickly recognized as the most efficient weapon, except for the sport of buffalo running.  Different places, times, circumstances and cultures determined what people chose to use historically.

Nowadays we can choose whatever we want and figure out an historical context it will fit well.  Many of us choose to use both rifles and smoothbores and recognize their superiority and limitations in different circumstances.
« Last Edit: December 27, 2011, 07:28:57 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: rifles versus smoothbores
« Reply #24 on: December 27, 2011, 07:30:29 PM »
Dan.
I don't know about the ratio or rifleman to smooth during the Revolutionary war  but one thing that could impact the ratio is casualties thru the war.  What skill level did people have that joined up later versus those who were there at the start. That could have influenced what they chose or were given more than a change in tactics by the army.

There several things that made a number of American commanders anti-rifle. As near as I can tell none had anything to do with effectiveness on the actual battlefield.
The US Army command structure was DETERMINED to fight the British Fight. This required a musket with a bayonet. The problem was, and they found this out early, the British owned this mode of fighting. They did use Rifleman's shirts for awhile to try to intimidate the British and for lack of uniforms, but a musket backed by a rifleman's shirt is still a musket.
At Saratoga the British had very effective artillery, I have read. This could have overcome the American's numerical advantage and DID early on at Freeman's Farm, since the patriots were unable to get past the artillery. Except, the artillery came within range of Morgan's rifles and the crews were decimated. One account indicate the crews were all killed except one LT and he had his cap shot off (Huddleston quoting from "With Burgoyne From Quebec" by Anbury).
Burgoyne's officer corps was constantly sniped, reducing the whole force's effectiveness. It was not safe to go beyond the pickets. He issued an order making going outside the pickets a CAPITAL OFFENSE. He was completely blinded by Morgan's men who so terrorized his indian scouts that most returned home and the others "could not be brought within sound of a rifle shot". The Canadians "were of little use". The killing of Fraser by all reports including Fraser's by a rifleman was a serious blow and demoralized the British including Burgoyne.

But few American Commanders could see the impact that a good rifle unit could provide on the battle field, or did not want to, not honorable you know. They were more interested doing things the European way. The Riflemen saved the American Army at Long Island, though it burns a lot of Re-enactors to admit it. Still it WAS a rifle unit at Throgs Neck. Musket armed troops may have done as well, but they were not there. They bought the time....
It is entirely possible that the American higher command felt about the rifle exactly as the British did and their complaints, which were hardly justified by the 1777-1778 could easily have been their way of justifying replacing the rifles with muskets.
There were several rifle units, Morgan's at the forefront that were highly sought after so its as though the American high command had a multiple personality disorder when it came to rifles. Except Morgan, he knew how to use them it would seem and knew how to best use militia, which at Cowpens was thought to be predominantly rifle armed.
Wayne detested rifles by all accounts and wanted muskets, unless he was fighting indians. Then he wanted rifles along.
But then as pointed out in the 1750s-60s indians did not fight like the British.
And as I pointed out not everyone can shoot a rifle well and even fewer can shoot a FL rifle well. This was proven to be the case early in the American war. Owning a rifle does not make one a rifleman.
And a great many people in the military still get the creeps over snipers. The English speaking armies had/have an aversion to snipers and it would seem this is still true to some extent. Sniping was erased after WW-I, it was forgotten after WW-II and Korea.
Until post VN War snipers were ONLY used in the American Forces in time of war and then application was very sporadic. Even in WW-II and Korea they would simply issue a few sniper rifles to infantry units. Sometimes arbitrarily according to one Korean War vet I know. They were very handy on the battlefield but they were one of those things not mentioned in polite company. They shot people in cold blood after all...
The Marines, for example, had NO snipers at all until 1966 when a dedicated sniper unit was formed in VN. They were using mostly off the shelf bolt action sporting rifles.

The 18th century mind set was that while it was OK to stick someone in the guts with a bayonet and/or bash in his skull with the musket butt it was somehow "dishonorable" to shoot the enemy at a distance where the shooter was safe, as riflemen often did. The US Army and Marine Corps really did not get over this until VN and may not be over it completely yet.

Gotta run

Dan
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