Author Topic: French flintlock  (Read 21621 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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French flintlock
« on: December 24, 2011, 07:25:25 PM »
The previous post about case hardening locks prompted me to start this topic.  The included photos are of an original French flintlock made in Paris around 1670-1675 by Thuraine.  Thuraine is most notably recognizable from his partnership with Le Hollandois and the design prints of their work which were published.  After having the chance to study this lock, I was amazed with the quality.  In particular how refined and developed the design was.  This lock is from a time only about 50 years after the introduction of the flintlock and it has basically all of the characteristics of a fully developed lock.  The mainspring is strong but has the characteristic let-off as the lock is put in full cock.  The tumbler and sear geometry is perfect.  The action is smooth.  The workmanship is fantastic.  In short it basically has all the characteristics we look for in a best quality lock today.  Before I had a chance to study this period and this type of work, I gues I had the idea that the development of the flintlock was more of a linear progression and the British were responsible for it's refinement.  I don't see it as such now.  In 50 years the French basically had things completely figured out.  Sure at the very end of the flintlock period the British made some small "improvements", but in large part, I view these as marketing gimics.  As with most things, I believe the final bit of refinement gained little in terms of actual performance.  




« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 12:25:13 AM by Jim Kibler »

Daryl

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #1 on: December 24, 2011, 07:49:35 PM »
Lovely. Does it have a fly?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #2 on: December 24, 2011, 08:15:51 PM »
No it doesn't have a fly.  A little more background might help.  This lock is from a pair of pistols.  One thing unusual is that the barrels are rifled.  Rifling on any firearm is very uncommon on French work of this time period.  The French had very much of a smooth bore firearms culture.  I don't know exactly when the fly was developed, but I feel pretty confident in saying that is was a Germanic addition for use with set triggers.  Set triggers were of course not used on French firearms.   If anyone would have any information on this I would be interested hearing about it.

Jim

Offline gusd

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #3 on: December 24, 2011, 08:18:11 PM »
The main spring is a work of art!!!
Gus D.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #4 on: December 24, 2011, 08:28:18 PM »
The main spring is a work of art!!!
Gus D.

Gus,

The photos dont' really do the lock justice.  There are many beautiful decorative details throughout.  This mainspring has actually had a little file work done on it sometime after it's original construction.  It removed part of the decorative details.  Here is a photo from the other lock which has a spring that has not been worked on.  Sorry for the poor photo, but I think it might help a little.


Online James Rogers

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #5 on: December 24, 2011, 08:36:53 PM »
Just like any good work. Take off the frills and it stands alone as a thing of beauty.
I agree about the English "refinements".  I believe their greatest contribution in the whole scheme of things was in removing some of the makeup to show more of the natural beauty. For my eye, as a general rule (there are exceptions) the early 18th century English pieces are my favorites. They exhibit the forms and lines of the French influence and are mostly executed by or at least heavily influenced by the French/Dutch immigrants who are exhibiting their past training while at the same time acknowledging a new customer base.

eddillon

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #6 on: December 24, 2011, 10:12:59 PM »
Gentlemen, to further this interesting discussion, I present a series of photos showing a lock from a French boys fowler.  This fowler was made ca. 1790-1815.  Note the "evolution" or lack of it.  No tweaking or refinement from the time of your lock til the making of this one.  Function rules!  I would not shoot this one but it still sparks beatifully.





 

greybeard

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #7 on: December 24, 2011, 10:43:41 PM »
The previous post about case hardening locks prompted me to start this topic.  The included photos are of an original French flintlock made in Paris around 1670-1675 by Thuraine.  Thuraine is most notably recognizable from his partnership the Le Hollandois and the design prints of their work which were published.  After having the chance to study this lock, I was amazed with the quality.  In particular how refined and developed the design was.  This lock is from a time only about 50 years after the introduction of the flintlock and it has basically all of the characteristics of a fully developed lock.  The mainspring is strong but has the characteristic let-off as the lock is put in full cock.  The tumbler and sear geometry is perfect.  The action is smooth.  The workmanship is fantastic.  In short it basically has all the characteristics we look for in a best quality lock today.  Before I had a chance to study this period and this type of work, I gues I had the idea that the development of the flintlock was more of a linear progression and the British were responsible for it's refinement.  I don't see it as such now.  In 50 years the French basically had things completely figured out.  Sure at the very end of the flintlock period the British made some small "improvements", but in large part, I view these as marketing gimics.  As with most things, I believe the final bit of refinement gained little in terms of actual performance. 






Don't you just admire how the flint is right in the middle of the pan. Joe Manton did this years later!!!
     Bob

Tony Clark

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #8 on: December 24, 2011, 10:47:22 PM »
Here are a few more pics of a pair of French pistol locks made just outside Paris in Versailles. I never could figure out why it was a cased set of 2 locks and barrels maybe someone has an idea as to why this would be. The Musée de l'Armée In Paris is the place to see many great early French firearms. I wandered around there for days and didn't see it all.




















Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #9 on: December 24, 2011, 10:48:20 PM »
Neat lock Ed.  To be fair with a comparison, these two locks are really not in the same category.  Thuraine was a Parisian gunmaker to Louis XIV and therefore could be considered one of the very best in the world at this time.  The lock Ed has shown is nice, though of a more common quality.  

It is interesting to note that on this lock a bridled pan and roller frizzen spring were employed.  As to the bridled pan, it first appeared in the last quarter of the 17th century, but was used infrequently during this period.  As the 18th century progressed, it's usage became more common.  It must be noted that some cheaper and even relatively late locks did not include a pan bridle, so it's not good to use it as a dating feature.  Further, on some high end locks, a pan bridle was likely omitted for decorative purposes at times.  I'm not certain when the roller frizzen / frizzen spring first appeared, but have seen a roller frizzen on a British lock from the 1750's.  Has anyone seen rollers before this?  The benefits of rollers were sometimes questioned in the period and still are by some today.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 02:38:34 AM by Jim Kibler »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #10 on: December 24, 2011, 10:58:45 PM »
Hi Tony.  Nice to see you here :)  Any idea of a date for the locks you've shown?  I might guess the 1760's but am not really sure.  I don't know why locks and barrels would be cased?  The only thing I can think of is that a case was made for the locks and barrels at some later point in time to just display them.

Anyone want to take a stab at some of the differences or "improvements" incorporated in this lock as compared to the Thuraine lock?  Might continue to make for some good discussion.

Jim

eddillon

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #11 on: December 24, 2011, 11:20:23 PM »
Hi Jim,  no criticism intended.  Just to show that the evolution certainly slowed down after your lock was produced.  Mine is installed on a boys fowler that is unmarked other than a proof mark just forward of the hooked breech plug.  The triggerguard, sideplate and barrel are engraved.  There are traces of gold in the engraving.  With these features and the diminutive size of the fowler I assume that it was made for a lucky son of an infuential, wealthy "citizen".  I certainly agree with about the Arms Museum.  Unfortunately I only had one day and an old Canon F-1 to capture images there.  saw things that are unknown outside the Musee.  What great coffee table book could be made with photos from there.

Offline BillPac

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #12 on: December 24, 2011, 11:23:28 PM »
Jim:
The first thing that jumps out to me is the raised  "waterproof" pan and pan cover.  Of course the gold lined pan and pan cover.  The extensions on the bottom of the frizzen that help to enclose the pan.  That's what I see on the first pass.
BillP

Offline Eric Laird

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #13 on: December 24, 2011, 11:31:06 PM »
What BillP said, but also the higher flash fence and the drain hole on the pan, what looks to me like a cam hump on the frizzen spring (nicely done as a decorative touch, too) and the link in the tumbler.

Really interesting stuff!

Merry Christmas, everyone!

Eric
Eric Laird

eddillon

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #14 on: December 24, 2011, 11:35:02 PM »
Here is alink to the little fowler I mentioned.
P.S.  the ramrod goes all thee way to the buttplate!

http://www.neconos.com/detailsfrench.htm  

Merry Christmas to all!!
« Last Edit: December 24, 2011, 11:42:39 PM by eddillon »

Offline BillPac

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #15 on: December 24, 2011, 11:36:07 PM »
I see the higher pan fence, how or what does that do to improve the lock?  Less flash in your eye?
BillP

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #16 on: December 25, 2011, 12:00:59 AM »
I'm glad you included the pictures of your lock Ed :)  Allowed for some good comparisons to be made.

I'm not sure wht big impact a higher fence would have.  Maybe others will know.

I think BillPac and elaird identified most of the "improvements" as compared to the Thuraine lock.  Fun stuff.

Jim

Offline Dave B

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #17 on: December 25, 2011, 12:28:21 AM »
Jim Thanks for posting this. Beautiful workmanship. Here is a Germanic lock with a bridle that was engraved very nicely the rest of the lock was unremarkable on the inside.




Dave Blaisdell

eddillon

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #18 on: December 25, 2011, 12:32:06 AM »
I am amazed at the evolution of threads such as this.  I too, hope for more input and information.  Methinks that Dennis will be moving this one, though.  This site is veritable university.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 12:34:33 AM by eddillon »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #19 on: December 25, 2011, 01:31:19 AM »
That's a beautiful lock Dave.  Thanks for posting it.  I don't recall seeing a bridle that heavily engraved.

One other item that's worth discussing are the pans on the locks shown.  You can see on the Thuraine, the pan is detachable, or a seperate piece hooked and screwed in place.  The French lock posted by Ed, though much later has a seperate pan as well, but the French lock shown by Tony has a pan that is integral to the plate.  The Germanic lock shown by Dave has a seperate detachable pan.  The 17th century French practice was to use a detachable pan.  By 1690-1695 the English were making locks of basically french form with an integral pan.  I had always wondered when the English began this practice and recently acquired a lock by Andrew Dolep with this feature from the time indicated above.  The English kept using the integral pan.  The standard Germanic practice was to continue with the French detachable design.  Even though the Germanic locks evolved and changed, detachable pans stayed standard.  I'm not well versed in 18th century French work, but it seems that both methods were at times used.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 01:32:48 AM by Jim Kibler »

Tony Clark

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #20 on: December 25, 2011, 01:54:07 AM »
I see the higher pan fence, how or what does that do to improve the lock?  Less flash in your eye?
BillP

The higher fence would better serve to keep the spark in the pan. If you watch Pletchers high speed videos this becomes really apparent, quite a few will hit the fence and bounce right back in the pan.

Offline smart dog

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #21 on: December 25, 2011, 05:13:33 AM »
So Jim,  are you going to chisel the raised bead border on your lock?  It has to be one of the most difficult borders that was ever produced. 

dave
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2011, 05:35:40 PM »
Hi Dave,

Yes, the lock will have a raised bead along all the main parts, the back of the frizzen will be chiseled, the cock will have a bit as will the plate behind the cock.  Don't know how well I can do it, but am sure going to try.

Jim

Offline smart dog

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2011, 09:52:00 PM »
Hi Dave,

Yes, the lock will have a raised bead along all the main parts, the back of the frizzen will be chiseled, the cock will have a bit as will the plate behind the cock.  Don't know how well I can do it, but am sure going to try.

Jim

Hi Jim,

Good for you.  You and I have at least one thing in common.  We both are willing to jump in with both feet regardless of how potentially hard the task is.  I fail half the time but you seem to succeed most of the time.  It will be a beautiful lock.

Merry Christmas,

dave 
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Offline Feltwad

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Re: French flintlock
« Reply #24 on: December 25, 2011, 10:21:55 PM »
Enclosed is an image of a Fench sxs flintlock shotgun in 20bore by Labourde of Paris
Feltwad



« Last Edit: December 25, 2011, 10:27:32 PM by Feltwad »