Caked Powder

[ChipK]

I had this happen today and it is about the 4th time it has happened to me and I am hoping someone has had a simular experiance and can explain it.

My wife loaded up a .40 flinter today and it would not go off.  I treated it like a dry ball and packed a bit of 4f into the touch hole and it just fizzed when I tried ot get it to og off.  When I got home and pulled the ball the powder was caked in and has to be scraped out with a tow worm.  Whn the powder came out it was like grey ash, much finer than the 3f Goex that went into the barrel a few hours before.

All I can think might be causing this is residual oil in the barrel that comtaminated the powder as I loaded it.  It was cold and humid this morning.


Any help or assistance you can offer is greatly appreciated.

[chuck-ia]

It would be normal for the powder to be caked, after loading the patched round ball, I think I would check the container that the gun was loaded with. chuck

[ChipK]

I used the powder straight form my horn.  Two other rifles shot all day long with it, no inconsistency there.

[Daryl]

You are probably correct, Chip - residual oil in the bore. The dusty stuff that came out was ash from the contaminated oil burning.

[ChipK]

The interesting thing Daryl is that that gun never went off.  I pulled a full load worth of caked powder out of the barrel and that junk was what looked grey and fine like ashes.  Nothing like normal powder - I should have tried to set some of it off to see if it would burn outside of the barrel

[R. Hare]

Chip,

Only time I've seen that grey stuff is when I've forgotten to clean a gun, and the old fowling goes that way, and can plug you up.
Don't have another explanation really...

R.

[Roger Fisher]

I suspect you got down in to the rock hard fouling cake on the breech! Which builds up due to not getting it clean!

[ChipK]

Roger it was the full load.  I scrapped out the vast majority of hte 30 grain load before I was able to get any air moving through the touch hole.  I am certain whole load was effected.

Very strange indeed!

[Daryl]

It would not take much '$#@*' (left over oil) to destroy such a small charge of powder.

[don getz]

Check this out.  I have seen this grey, caked stuff in the breech end of a barrel.....was almost like rock.  A possible problem could be that your touch hole liner is projecting into the bore and will not allow the cleaning jag to go all the
way down against the breech plug.  If this is the case, it will feel like you have bottomed out with the jag, but, in reality,
you are hitting the liner.   This is just a possibility, check it out.  You can easily check it by marking your ramrod when it
bottoms out and then check this measurement on the outside of the barrel...........Don

[northmn]

While unlikely as you described it.  I replaced a touch  hole liner for an individual that was too large.  He used a light charge and it vented out the touch hole and left the ball in place.

DP

[LynnC]

Northum may be on to something.
When you said you stuffed 4f in the vent and fired it, it may have ignited the oil or whatever contaminated powder charge and "fizzed", leaving the ash residue.................Lynn

[Roger Fisher]

Check this out.  I have seen this grey, caked stuff in the breech end of a barrel.....was almost like rock.  A possible problem could be that your touch hole liner is projecting into the bore and will not allow the cleaning jag to go all the
way down against the breech plug.  If this is the case, it will feel like you have bottomed out with the jag, but, in reality,
you are hitting the liner.   This is just a possibility, check it out.  You can easily check it by marking your ramrod when it
bottoms out and then check this measurement on the outside of the barrel...........Don

I do believe we would all be surprised if we knew how many 'custom' rifles are out there with that problem.  Like ol Getzy says check it out.  It can be checked from the muzzle as described .  Some folks then crank the liner out and guesstimate how to shape the inner end and how deep.  I (and maybe I'm in the minority) feel the best way is to pull the barrel and plug and fix by holding the ol gal up to a light and use a rat tail smooth on the end to file her back to the concave shape it needs to be flush with the bore then check her with a patch on a jagged rod to see she passes the liner end with no binding. Better strength that way!  This also cleans the grit from your filing away at her!

While I'm acting like I know what I'm doing, listen'read this true tale...!  Good ol Mike (I'll take a chance and use his real name which is  ________)  Ol Mike was using his percussion longrifle at his own shoot and others and had numerous misfires and hangers.
I kept offering him $75 for the rifle and telling him she may look clean but she ain't!! Gotta get that breech clean says I!  Get lost says ol Mikey!    To shorten the story, he came to me later (much later) and confessed that he pulled the barrel and plug and had to hammer that fouling rock out of the breech.  That rock was over an inch long says Mike. That is impossible says I 'cause the rifle would not fire at all then.  Wrong again says Mikey!  That rock plug had a fine hole/tunnel straight down the middle and that is why the misfires.   Needless to point out that you must soak that breech and not just a little while and get that plug out of there and not let her 'grow'.

I have a seperate rod with a worm attached and I go in there carefully with a patch and twist the thingee and wipe the breech face clean.  The ones I build - I polish the face with 400 paper.. 

My jagged loading rod is cupped and I cut a cross across the face to enable me to go in to the breech at times during a shoot give her a minor twist and withdraw and find the cup of said jag packed with that fouling.... The cross looks like an X so when I seat the ball the ball know where to hit on the target

A word on pulling the breech plug, beware the vent liner may be in to the frt edge of the breech plug so then the liner must be backed out at least part way to pull the breech plug (but you already knew that )

Well now sorry for getting too long; but hope it helps

[Daryl]

When I clean, I flush water in and out of the bore -  either by taking the barrel off and dunking it in a bucket, or by using the hole and clamp thingie from Track. Both methods work equally.  Water is drawn right up to the muzzle with the tight patch on the rod, then heavy pressure on the rod squirts, no - blasts the water back out the vent. This cleans off the front of the plug well.  When drying the bore, patches are run down to the plug, slightly past the scntre of the vent hole then back out.  Every now and then, I pull the plug and check the bore - perfect! and no buildup in front of the plug.

 Guns I've seen the buildup usually have a thread or two ahead of the plug. The plug isn't bottomed against the inner shoulder or as in a .50, a 5/8/18 thread is used, which is almost bore size comapred to the tap size. The partical threads hold fouling and it builds up - unless blasted out by high speed moving COLD water. My opinion, only.

[satwel]

I had the same thing happen to me once. I took my .50 flintlock to the range. Loaded it, but it refused to fire. I knew I hadn't dryballed it. I pulled the ball and patch, pointed the muzzle at the ground and nothing came out. It took 20 minutes with a scraper to dig out the powder charge that had turned into a gray ash-like substance. My theory is I hadn't wiped the bore properly before loading. Now, I'm more diligent about removing the oil before the first shot.

[roundball]

While my understanding is that patent breeches are not normally used in the more traditional longrifle designs, I have to say they are simply fantastic...100% reliable and evidently self cleaning during use...I couldn't even begin to tell you where the couple of vent picks are that I bought 10 years ago because I was told I would need them...never used one.
I pump flush them squeaky clean after every use...the only times I've ever had a misfire is because I've screwed something up myself

[Daryl]

Problems with opil/powder contamination will not happen if one uses 'enough' oil. I can't see having so much in there that it contaminates the powder, but then, the only oil in mine is WD40 and any excess is wiped out before storing the rifle after cleaning.  Many times I don't wipe it out again before loading and have yet to have a missfire first fall of the cock.  Before loading, I do look at the vent to make sure there isn't any 'oil' in it - if so a piece of flannel cloth wicks that away - load and fire.

[northmn]

Problems with patent breeches depend on the design of the breeches.  The first muzzleloader I ever shot was a 50 Hawken made by an individual that also lent me Baird's book.  I shot it a lot at a shoot and it became fouled.  The only way to fix it was to pump it out totally as it would hangfire and misfire.  At that time I was used to cartridges that always went bang and smokeless powder that did not foul.  I was told by some that were supposed to know that that was a characteristic of the "Hawken" breech and that a drum and nipple was more reliable.  For practical purposes Hawkens were not shot that much to foul out that bad without being cleaned.  Today I shoot mostly flintlocks and can see no real advantage or disadvantage to a "Hawken" style hooked breech in a flint lock.  While I had had good luck witht the drum system, I suggest that the patent breech did take over. Todays patent breeches feature a cleanout screw and other features some of the originals did not like the one on an original 16 ga I took apart.

DP

[roundball]

Today I shoot mostly flintlocks and can see no real advantage or disadvantage to a "Hawken" style hooked breech in a flint lock.

The benefit to me of the hooked breech plug on my Flintlocks is the simplicity of removing the barrel to sit it in a 5 gal bucket of hot soapy water for soaking / cleaning.

[Daryl]

DP- I pulled a cap-lock Hawken-style Patent Breech once to see what it looked like after shooting for a long time - couple days worth - maybe 150 to 200 shots. Of course, no sort of wiping was done while shooting.  The cup of the breech was completely solid with powder fouling, rock hard and it had a tiny hole, maybe 1/8" in diameter, running from the front edge of the fouled breech, all the say up to the nipple seat. I was able to snake a dental tool up the channel. It never missed fire while shooting.  I thought it interesting to see that curved small hole in the solid caked fouling coming out at almost exactly the centre.  The 'cup' of the breech was 1/2" in diameter, cupped back to a hemispherical bottom and solidly caked with hard BP fouing to flush with the front end of the breech.

[northmn]

Personally I think that was part of the problem with that gun.  I was told to wipe after every relay so that I pushed more crud into the breech. I have seen TC's foul out in a similar manner and need flushing, but in all cases after a lot of shooting.  Personally if I were to build another percussion I would likely use a patent breech.  Just don't shoot them much anymore.  Shoot 45-70 BP, cast bullets in a modern gun with peep sights, or flinlocks.  Right now I am shooting mostly flintlocks and may take my percussion out deer hunting.  Flintlocks are fairly easy to clean compared the angles in a percussion so I rarely need to remove the barrel.  i do check them with a bore light.  Just made a 12 ga. with a Nock style breech and can even clean it with a shotgun jag so that it shows clean with the light.  Of course I admit I am not shooting trap matches and that sort of thing anymore.

DP   

[Daryl]

Did not the Nock Breech have an extra cavity behind the plug's cavity. The small cavity would be difficult to clean without pumping water in and out or using clean-out screw slot-type vents - Yuk!

[northmn]

Mine may not be a true Nock but what I wanted to do was to save some barrel length off of a cartridge barrel in the 12.  I installed a breech plug about 1 1/2 inches long and then drilled a 1/2 in hole centered in the face of the breech deep enough to properly place the lock.  It does require a minimum charge of powder, something like 50 or 60 grains, which for a 12 is pretty minimal.  I use a slotted cleaning jag like used for a 410 to swab it out.  The gun is made for easy barrel removal if needed.  Whatever the system is called it works.

DP