Re:Historic loading of round ball in a smoothbore

[LynnC]

Note - All that follows was split off from "Rifles vs Smoothbores" in gunbuilding


Gents,
It was mentioned a ways back in this thread that smoothbores were likely shot with naked balls or perhaps with a wad on top.   The following are just my thoughts about round balls in smoothbores.

I find it hard to believe that the smoothbore users of the day did not commonly use patched balls.  It doesn't seem such a stretch that if a patched ball made a rifle shoot true that it would improve the accuracy of the lowly smoothbore.  I you are not in a fight for your life, you have time to load it patched.  

Its also a Whole lot safer to carry a smoothbore with a patched ball than a bare ball, with or without a wad on top, that might move off the powder.

Though not practical for military use (at least after the first shot), I would bet that patched balls were commonly used in smoothbores when hunting game.   Would it not be agreed that smooth rifles were likely shot with patched balls?  I Can't prove it either way....

BTW - None of my comments are to be construed as to say smoothbore accuracy in any way equals a rifle with a patched round ball......

[LynnC]

Not to argue James, Just what if'in.

Patching a ball in a smoothbore just seems (to me  anyway) so logical.

Another thought.....Could the meaning of "wadding" not be interchangeable with "patching"?

Perhaps the act of patching a ball in a smoothbore was so common knowledge as to be un-noteworthy.

Just a thought - Can't prove a thing. 

[rich pierce]

There are a lot of period references to using wadding with a round ball and plenty of period guns found loaded with wadding.  I'm unaware of references to patching a round ball in a smoothbore in the 1700's-early 1800's.  Of course paper cartridges were common in military situations.

Personally I've had trouble with patched balls in smoothies, keeping it clan/able to load after a couple shots. Seems like there's no place for the fouling to go.  Maybe if I swabbed after shots this problem would go away.  But I'm more interested in the 18th century experience than modernizing or optimizing, so will probably stick to wadding.

[LynnC]

I find patching a round ball easy in a smoothbore.  Undersize ball, thick patch, easy RR only loading.  Shot after shot.  I just see it as unrealistic to think nobody could figure out patched round balls are far more accurate.  These people were not simpletons.  It works for us, no doubt (in my mind anyway) it would have worked for them.  Too simple not to.

Heck, its hard to find period instruction to clean the flintlock fowler or musket.  Percussion instructions are available.  Seem to be the Same deal as loading, not important enough to mention...

I guess I'm not reading the right stuff because I can find little reference at all to loading smoothbores other than military muskets.

[James Rogers]

Lynn,

While I agree with the logic you bring forth, it seems to be modern as far as the historical record is concerned.  I am of the smaller ball and thicker patch team when shooting PRB in a smoothe gun.

This topic is actually being discussed from two angles, historical and modern practical. Many times they do not mesh. Sometimes they do but the record as best we have it decides.

Also, there are numerous 18th century references to cleaning and loading 18th century flint guns. There are at least 8 or 10 books on the subject as well. Send me a pm Lynn and I will send you a list of a few of them tomorrow when I am at the pc. Fun reading : )

Regards,
James

[LynnC]

Thank you James - Will do

[James Rogers]

Another thought.....Could the meaning of "wadding" not be interchangeable with "patching"?

This could certainly be a possibility but the plethora of wadding references in the period would seem pretty solid in their consistency.
This also proves helpful in easily drawing a load with a worm.

[LynnC]

Thank You James,

I couldn't figure out how to reply to your PM so I  must do it here.
If you could post your note to me here, others might get something out of it as well.  Can you tell I'm Computer Challenged?

Hope you don't mind I printed you PM out for future reference.  Of the 5 books I've only had the opportunity to read one.  I look forward to getting hold of the other 4.

There is no dispute that wadding above and below a load of shot was in common use and that military style ball loads were in cartridges or wadded.

I numbered the wadding references 1 thru 11

1 - load of shot - no dispute

2 - load of shot - no dispute

3 - wad with ball military situation

4 - load of shot - no dispute

5 - Shot in back, ball and wad in wound - Context? Situation?

6 - load of shot - no dispute

7 - bare balls carried in mouth - context?  Buffalo hunting from horse back maybe?

8 - load of bare ball after missing a deer with supposed "wadded ball" - written by observer, not the hunter, Questionable

9 - military style ball load

10 - load of shot - no dispute

11 - ball with a grass wad - who shot the woman?  context?  Circumstances?

Of the 11 references 5 are shot loads not in dispute, 2 are military style loads that are expected to be wadded and 4 are possibly civilian (?) ball loads that lack context.  I wish I could have read each of individual passages in their entirety so that i could understand the situation of each instance and not appear so argumentative.  (Sorry I'm not computer sharp enough to have posted a quote for the above references)

The 4 instances you present are intriguing but I remain unconvinced that patched balls were not used in smoothbores back in the day.  I look forward to reading the books referenced and perhaps then I'll be convinced.  I guess I want some period shooting author to say patched balls cannot be used in smoothbores because.......

Thanks Again,
Lynn

[James Rogers]

Lynn,
I am not totally convinced that PRB did not see limited use either and that is why the search continues.  What I am sure of is that the most studied in the subject have only uncovered a pile of wadding references to solidify it as a common 18th century method. A student of history must follow the record and not supposition. Also a student of history must follow the record even if it changes direction. Some have a hard time with that as well.

  I gave you a small sample of the many wadding references out there and just what I had readily available. Everyone has to share in the footwork so we will be looking for you to bring back some new information : ) IIRC most of those were collected by Karl Koster and are centralized in the Great Lakes area.

We are almost heading to the "trying to prove a negative" abyss ; )

[LynnC]

Quick reply - You must be on here full time 

I'm willing to read all references to civilian wadded balls and will certainly be glad to post anything I discover, wadded or patched or not, along these lines.  You know, I've probably read dozens of antique gun books.  Lots about the guns and their use but little on their loading and upkeep.  Truely hard to find info.

Maybe this thread should be "How were balls loaded in a smoothbore back in the day?"

Sorry if I high jacked the topic but this is a strong area of interest to me....

Good Night and Thanks Again

[rich pierce]

Fellas, good discussion, hope you found that I split the previous topic (rifles versus smoothbores) and that this line of discussion may receive more input from shooters.  To summarize so far, the discussion seems to cover 2 topics:

1) How round balls were loaded historically in non-military situations in smoothbores

and

2) How folks load round balls in smoothbores now for best results.

[LynnC]

Thanks Rich for splitting this off.

Primarily my interest is how were civilian smoothbores (trade guns, fowling pieces, smooth rifles) loaded with ball back in the day.

Any period info would be most welcome...............Lynn

[rich pierce]

I'm quoting a quote here, so consider it with caution:
“In countries where orchards abound, a very fine moss, of greenish grey colour, is found adhering to the apple trees, which is extremely proper for wadding….tow is also very good for this purpose”.


The above information is taken from “An Essay On Shooting 1789”, by Cleator.  Note it does not specifically indicate this is for round ball.

In a PM I am sending you a link to another forum where this has been discussed and many period references offered.  They are what they are; not all apply specifically to round ball only.

[Bentflint]

From what I have seen a bare ball will shoot better than a patched ball from a smooth bore flintlock. From the first gun I built, a 20 bore French trade gun to the .40 cal. Smooth rifle for my nephew and my .55 smooth rifle. They will all hold a tighter group with a bare ball. Doesn’t matter if the ball is dropped on the powder or over a wad.

While working up a load for my .55 I tried 5 or 6 different patches, different lubes and 4 ball sizes from loose to way too tight to load with a ramrod. The best group was about 8” at 50 yards. At 100 yards bagged up on the bench it would hit a 20” round steel plate about ˝ the time. When loaded with around 85gr. FF and a bare ball seated on the powder it will hit center of the plate and group in the 8” zone every time. It’s good for 25 shots before it starts getting crusty and you have push the ball past the fowling. Add a spit soaked felt wad and it will shoot all day.

It also works with wet wasp nest, green grass, damp dead grass, damp rotted sap wood (one of my favorites), dried fungus and a little spit and lots of other stuff that was available 200 years ago. A little bit of grass on top will hold the ball while hunting or shooting down hill targets without effecting where it hits.

Stating with loaded gun it will put 11 to 12 hits on a paper plate at 25 yards in 3 minutes. Try that with patched balls.

Is this a historical reference? No. But, I feel if you walk into the woods armed gun, powder and ball you will find the same answers they did 250 years ago.

[Canute Rex]

Two things to think about:

First is our ability to source a variety of bullet molds that are accurate to a few thousandths of an inch. We have the luxury of time, money, and supply to experiment with patch and ball combinations. We can buy boxes of swaged .662 or .445 or .495 balls to try out and then head off to the fabric store for some .021 ticking, or maybe .015.

Back in the day perhaps the fowler came with a brass, iron or soapstone mold that was roughly the right size. The fabric available was what scrap they had around.

Those rough choices likely leveled the playing field between bare ball and patched ball.

Also, their standards were probably lower in most cases. They weren't trying for five shots in the 10 ring. If they could hit a man or a deer in the body at 50 yards with a large-ish ball they got the job done. Call it a foot and a half circle. Bentflint seems to be able to hit an 8" circle at that range - eminently practical for 18th century purposes, so why would they slow themselves down with patches?

[flintriflesmith]

Can someone post a link or paper reference to some of the archaeological sites where loaded guns have been dug. I seem to remember that there were several --perhaps James Levy in Florida-- instances where loaded guns were found and, since they were lost in the period, the loads would help settle what was actually being used.
I believe some were from overturned boats/canoes and others were from battle sites.
They probably don't contradict the documentary references but do provide another source of information.
Gary

[LynnC]

Thanks to Rich for sending me a link.  I copied a couple items that relate to the question and hope nobody minds.  I didn't copy any military or shot loads mentioned in the link as we are interested in civilian style ball loads.

“As you might expect, parts from many Type G trade guns have been recovered in FL. I think the one that you are referring to and the one that is the most complete is the piece recovered from the Suwannee River at Running Springs by a river diver back in 2005. It was marked “Williams” on the lock, but no proof marks were found discernable on the barrel. It was 24 gauge or .58 cal. and the barrel was 46 ˝” in length. It was octagon to round with a diameter of 1.2” at the breech. It was found loaded with a ball that looked to have been whittled down in size and palm or palmetto fiber appeared to be the wadding.”

E-mail from James Levy, a conservator working for the State of Florida.

"..had shot her in the back...she thought if she could only have this bullet out she would not have such pain. So Wacouta opened a knife and gave it to her. She made an incision and the bullet, together with a bunch of grass, fell to the floor and rolled away. They always wadded their guns with grass."
~ Mary E. Schwandt Schmidt Recollection,.German Pioneer Accounts of the Great Sioux Uprising of 1862

Both of the above seem to indicate that native indians wadded their ball loads with natural substances readily available to them.  I've read similar accounts of native use of natural wadding.  

Still looking for period accounts of how a hunter, trapper, civilian might load his ball, patched or wadded..........Lynn

 

[rich pierce]

Seems we're into home defense now; it would not be difficult to keep the topic more longrifle-related.  "If'n I was in a cabin surrounded by Brant's boys I'd want to be loading and shooting such and such."

We clearly lack a lot of historical data on how smoothbore civilian guns were loaded with round ball.  There's not a lot of documentation that wadding was used atop the ball, but it's there.  Documentation that patched round balls were used seems scant if it exists at all.

W/o more specific data to go on I'd suspect that a person's training had a lot to do with how they loaded a smoothbore with a round ball.  A townsman/soldier who did militia drill then fought in the army would have learned to shoot a paper cartridge.  Seems native Americans learned to use the naked ball and natural wadding on top for their smoothbores.  Somebody must have taught them that, maybe in order to make them less effective (almost just kidding; surely they would have observed how whites loaded their guns).  A hunter with a wender, one barrel rifled and one barrel smooth, may have used a patch in both when both were loaded with round ball.  Or not.

[LynnC]

Not here Rich, we left the modern home defense over on the rifle vs smoothbore thread in gunbuilding 

[Dogshirt]

Guys! There REALLY comes a time when any SANE  individual has to say "Who the H3)) cares!" Enough is enough in ANYONES book! If it went down the barrel, it's over!

[rich pierce]

Not here Rich, we left the modern home defense over on the rifle vs smoothbore thread in gunbuilding 

Lynn, I confused myself with that split!   

Dogshirt, some of us are like a dog with a bone- nobody's forcing anyone to read more of a thread than they want.  But sometimes it's like a car wreck I suppose- can't drive by without a glance or two.

[Dogshirt]

I understand, I am an anthopologist with my field being the Northern Plains. But some times one just has to walk away from picking nits!

[LynnC]

Oh DS, What the Heck else are we going to argue about? 

[Dogshirt]

Well, as long as you're having fun.

[Bentflint]

I'm having fun, that's why I keep clicking on this thread. If I didn't want to read it I wouldn't click on it, or comment about it.