Author Topic: Claude Niquet a Liege, Brass Barreled Rifle (Read 11625 times)

Jim Kibler · « **on:** December 31, 2011, 11:28:27 PM »

I thought some might find this at least a little interesting. The attached color photos are of a gun I picked up a while ago. It was made by Claude Niquet in Liege, Belgium around 1735-1740. It is a smoothbore gun with a Spanish pattern (octagon to round) barrel. The barrel has the marks of Alanzo Martinez, but I believe the barrel is a fake. The gun combines French fowling piece characteristics with Germanic traits including a raised guard grip rail and a cheek piece. Comparing this with the Brass Barreled Rifle (black and white photos) you can see similarities in stocking and carving. To me this is significant in that you seldom see such a parallel between European and American work. I know of no other examples that have similarity such as these guns do. I'm certain other European guns of similar stocking exist, however. I'm in no way drawing any conclusions about how guns like this may have influenced whoever made the Brass Barreled gun, but merely presenting a European counterpart with some similarities in architecture and carving. Hope you enjoy and of course any comments welcomed.

Thanks,
Jim

Tony Clark · « **Reply #1 on:** December 31, 2011, 11:59:23 PM »

Jim do you think you could please post some more pics of the cheek piece of your gun the one you gave is a little dark with not much detail.

Tony Clark · « **Reply #2 on:** January 01, 2012, 12:06:38 AM »

I'm also wondering how your making your attribution to maker and date of manufacture?

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #3 on:** January 01, 2012, 12:21:22 AM »

Tony,

Here are a couple more shots I took a while ago. Not sure if they are any better though. The gun is quite dark and doesn't seem to photograph well.

Jim

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #4 on:** January 01, 2012, 12:38:55 AM »

The lock is signed Claude Niquet a Liege. As far as a date goes, it's much the same as we date American pieces. It's comparing it to other pieces from the same maker or region and trying to work out a reasonable estimate. One indicator in particular is that some of the carving and engraving is begining to take on a rocco feel, which puts it into the time frame indicated. Lets put it this way, I feel certain it's not from the 1720's or the 1750's. So somewhere in between works fine for me. Without refreshing myself, I think Niquet worked from a little before 1720 into the 1750's.

bgf · « **Reply #5 on:** January 01, 2012, 02:34:02 AM »

Jim,
It certainly is though-provoking in regards to the BB rifle, though obviously not in line for direct influence, I would guess (agreeing with you), due to the lack of the prominent step on the wrist of BB rifle, etc. It does demonstrate that these things did not come out of thin air, though. I would guess there were many such guns/rifles either where the BB rifle maker (won't get into that) originated or where he settled when coming to America.

I'm also fascinated by the profile of the triggerguard with the vertical spike and the prominent lug in front. In profile, it is a tantalizingly close to some famous (though later) Virginia (and also NC) rifles...and I've never seen quite that setup with a single trigger, but there is a lot I haven't seen.

Thanks for posting this.

PS. The lack of a toeplate with a squared toe line is also interesting...

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #6 on:** January 01, 2012, 03:48:27 AM »

There are many differences between the two guns, but there are a few undeniable similiarities. As I said, European counterparts to American guns seem to be very uncommon.

For those who are less familiar, with this stuff, compare the shape of the cheek pieces from all the views. Note the steps at the front and rear. Notice the serpentine comb carving and how it transitions into the cheek piece. Notice the small tabs at the front of the comb.

Similarities in details such as these are significant not coincidental. I believe whoever made the Brass Barreled Rifle was in some way exposed to European guns with styling such as this.

Jim

Dave B · « **Reply #7 on:** January 01, 2012, 05:07:50 AM »

Jim,
Thank you once again for the nuggets presented for us all to enjoy. There is clearly the Continental essence in the layout of the BB Gun. It is nice to be able to see the common threads that tie one to the other. The length of the bottom of the cheek piece on both is longer that what I first thought till I saw the bottom and top views.
the detail at the nose of the comb is one of my favorites. Here is a shot you dont get to see of a Continental fowler comb. Showing the fine line of the carving. Some photos make you think the line is heavier and deeper than it really is.

the height of the detail is no more than the thickness of a business card.

J. Talbert · « **Reply #8 on:** January 01, 2012, 11:05:17 PM »

Jim,
Perhaps a much more modest example of some implied knowledge by an American maker of European (actually English) work might be found on the rifle by Valentine Fondersmith (RCA #74)

The tang carving on this rifle bears some definite similarity to that of the Barbar duck gun (illustration #249) in Great British Gunmakers. There very well may be other examples of this particular design out there, but I'm not aware of them.

Jeff

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #9 on:** January 02, 2012, 08:56:37 PM »

Thanks Jeff. That is another good example.

Jim

duca · « **Reply #10 on:** January 02, 2012, 10:01:00 PM »

Awesome Gun...

Bart · « **Reply #11 on:** July 18, 2012, 03:06:36 AM »

That is one cool gun !!!!

Bart

Tom Currie · « **Reply #12 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:15:14 AM »

Jim, Thanks for the interesting post.

bgf · « **Reply #13 on:** July 18, 2012, 04:18:11 AM »

Jim,
What is the barrel pin placement on this one?

smart dog · « **Reply #14 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:00:49 AM »

Hi Jim,
Great gun. Why do you think the Spanish barrel is fake?

dave

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #15 on:** July 18, 2012, 08:45:13 PM »

Dave,

I'm certain the barrel is a fake, but I think there is a good chance it it. The fact that a barrel with Alanso Martinez marks is on a mid grade Liege made gun makes me wonder given the propensity for fakery of barrels in this area. Also, the mark didn't match up perfectly with other Alanso Martinez barrels I've seen. The mark is as follows:

MAR
TN
IEZ

I wonder if the odd spelling was purposeful to protect themselves? Any thoughts?

Jim

smart dog · « **Reply #16 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:03:12 AM »

Hi Jim,
I am sure you are right. In my references, Alanzo Martinez's mark usually was:
AO
MAR
TI
NEZ

and it often had a counter stamp containing a hunting dog.

I'll bet the misspelling of Martinez was just a mistake by a counterfeiter who didn't know how to spell the Spanish name. I don't think they had to worry about international legal protections in those days.

dave

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #17 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:33:53 AM »

An early case of a Chinese knock-off!

Hypothesis: The builder could get a premium for the Spanish barrels by the real Martinez; with faking, he could get the same price from the customer, at a lower cost to the himself.

Spanish and Turkish barrels were esteemed for their high quality and strength.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #18 on:** July 19, 2012, 04:45:35 AM »

Dave,

I forgot to include the AO. So the stamp is as follows:

AO
MAR
TN
IEZ

It also has the hunting dog stamp as well.

rich pierce · « **Reply #19 on:** July 19, 2012, 08:15:24 PM »

Had a chat with Okwaho (Tom Patton) a collector of Liege guns the other day, who was eager to hear of this gun. We were discussing that this lock is much stronger evidence of it being a Liege gun than the rest of the furniture and especially the architecture. If there was no signature on the lock, we might surmise it was Germanic-stocked gun and a dandy at that. The suite of furniture is interesting, a French-styed buttplate and perhaps sideplate, but the guard seems less so with the spur.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #20 on:** July 19, 2012, 10:43:04 PM »

bgf,

Sorry, I overlooked your question initially. The first barrel pin is located 7 7/8" from the breech. Evidence of other lugs are gone due to the stock shortening.

Rich,

I don't really see the furniture being atypical for Liege work. Fairly strong Germanic and French influences are typically seen. The furniture is similar to what is often seen on the work of Herman Bongarde during this general time period. Bongarde worked in Dusseldorf which I believe is only around 80 miles from Liege. It seems Bongard was quite prolific in his work and his influence was likely felt. So we have a gun that is sort of an amalgum of French and Germanic Characteristics. The French influence can often be seen in Guns within the Germanic regions as well. So a clear cut vision of a prototypical Germanic gun is not very acurate. Things are a little more cloudy than what may seem to be at first glance I don't think the lock on this Liege made gun would be so out of place on a gun made in Germanic regions as well. Round faced locks were not uncommon.

Jim

rich pierce · « **Reply #21 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:00:02 PM »

Agreed, it's not simple or wise to try to pigeonhole European work or American for that matter.

smart dog · « **Reply #22 on:** July 19, 2012, 11:45:52 PM »

Hi,
Following up Jim's post, I think it is important to remember that during the 18th century there really was no Germany as we know it today. It was still a collection of relatively independent states and principalities, many of whom strongly adopted French culture, language, art, and fashions. For example, during mid century, Frederick the Great of Prussia was a close friend of Voltaire and he was infatuated with French culture. Despite warring with France, he still adopted much that was French. Among the well-to-do in Europe, his example was not unique. I am sure that influence affected the artistic styles of firearms throughout much of Europe such that French styles were often blended with other regional traditions.

dave

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Author Topic: Claude Niquet a Liege, Brass Barreled Rifle (Read 11625 times)

Tony Clark

Tony Clark