What's a good calibre for your hunting area?

[Daryl]

Granted, this is a direct possibility for only the North and South of the West - but it must be taken into consideration. Seems to me, Lewis and Clark didn't think much of their .54 cal rifles for grizzlies, but perhaps that was only due to the military ctgs. they were using?



What's a good, all round calibre for where you hunt?

[Dave Faletti]

Hunting Oregon griz aren't an issue.  Not very worried about black bear.  All my rifles are 50 cal or larger for they are legal for deer or elk.  When  I hunted Washington Cascades and North Idaho griz were a slim possiblity but getting more so now.  Moose were a more likely problem in Idaho.  62 cal is the smallest  I would want to shoot a large bear with.  It has a ball weight and velocity thats about the same as my 45-70 which does well enough on elk and I know would work ok on a large bear though I would feel under gunned.  69 and larger is what  I would prefer if in griz country but would like 12 thru 10 bore if  I actually hunted them.  The problem  I find with larger bores is the weight.  A given bore size has an appropriate minimum weight for tolerable recoil and accuracy..  My maximum weight for a hunting rifle is 10 pounds  preferably 9 depending on balance.  The larger bores tend to exceed that.  My main journey making muzzleloaders has been coming up with the best large game rifle  I can for me and where  I want to hunt.  Be easier if I was right handed but thats a whole different subject.

[Daryl]

Any more, Idaho and some parts of Montana, the grizzlies come to a rifle shot looking to take the animal away from the hunters.  Same thing happening here - we've almost exploding grizzly populations in some areas. 

Friends called in 5 (at a run) when bugling for Elk.  They were hunting with long bows at the time, sitting on stands at ground level and have stopped bow hunting altogether now. They both only hunt with modern rifles, now.

[BrownBear]

Granted, this is a direct possibility for only the North and South of the West - but it must be taken into consideration. Seems to me, Lewis and Clark didn't think much of their .54 cal rifles for grizzlies, but perhaps that was only due to the military ctgs. they were using?



What's a good, all round calibre for where you hunt?

Looks like my next door neighbor!!!   

I've been charged on numerous occasions over the last 35 years, and I have to say NOTHING you carry seems adequate.  And I've often hunted deer with a 375 H&H. 

But there's something that gets lost on most people when contemplating a bear charge: It happens so fast that you probably won't have time to get a gun to your shoulder, much less to get off more than one aimed shot.  I don't feel particularly "undergunned" with a one-shooter because I'm confident that shots 2,3,4,5, and 6 don't mean hooey.

I was charged by a sow with a couple of cubs last year, starting at about 30 yards, the moment she saw me.  She closed to 20 feet in three long hops and stopped to cuss me out, then left. Rightly or wrongly, I might have given her a charge as she came inside 20 yards, but I didn't have the gun to my shoulder yet. Truth be known, she had already stopped by the time I was looking over the sights.   Bears accelerate faster than a horse, and cover ground just as fast as a thoroughbred once they get rolling.

I have to say though, that my comfort level goes up with the size of the hole in the barrel.  My "ultralight" caliber is a 50. I'm no more comfortable with a 54, though.  I usually hunt with a 58 or 62 because I don't have a 69 or 72.  Yet. 

Another "truth be known":

When I come across a bear or fresh sign, the best caliber is 2.7 liters, the displacement of my truck's engine.  I just leave the area if I feel uncomfortable, and I avoid areas of known bear concentrations.

[Stormrider51]

Seeing as how grizzlies generally aren't found in Texas and the largest meanest critter we usually shoot is a feral hog, a .45 cal will do the job.  My .50 is more than enough.

Storm

[bonron]

Daryl: I hunt deer with a .40 cal. That' s legal in Ohio with .38 cal being the minimum allowed for deer. .40 is the maximum for small game. Shot placement is very vital and I won't take a shot over 50 yds and it has to be standing. Load I use is 60 grns 3f and .395 patched round ball. I realize .40 is small to some folks standards but it works for me. Been shooting gallery 3 position for many years. So have some background on evaluating shots.

[blunderbuss]

Last time I got charged was by a Russian pig outside of San Antonio Texas those are mean critters and they attack. Got him with a .45 Colt single action didn't have time to get to my .58 Jaeger

[Don Getz]

Since you have brought out a grizzly charge, let me tell you what happened to a local guy hunting in western Montana. This was told to me by this guys wife, who came to my house as a visiting nurse about a year ago.   This guy was hunting
with a 7 mm Mag., Rem 700.   He and a friend were hunting with a guide, the guide dropped him at a spot and then took
the other hunter on down the mountain.  He heard a slight noise and turned around just in time to see a sow real close
and coming, had two cubs with her.   He hurriedly pulled his rifle up and shot over the sow, killing one of the cubs.  He
then "short stroked" his rifle, and the sow was on him.    He shoved the barrel down the bears throat.....has teeth marks
on the foregrip of the gun.   The bear backed off, went over to the dead cub and disembowled it......why, I have no idea.
The bear then left with the other cub.   I would normally be very skeptical about this story if the guys wife hadn't told
me about it.......a wife couldn't make this story up.   I told his wife that I hoped he had an extra pair of pants with him....
Don

[leatherman]

Haven hunted African plains game and spent some time discussing  caliber preferences with several professional hunters along with black powder shooters over there I have been converted to the larger calibers of .58 to .72 for my black powder hunting rifles. Not that my .40 and .50 calibers didnt do the job on 7 whitetail I have shot. It's just that a big round ball punches a big hole with more foot pounds of energy making it a more effective tool for any game weather dangerous or not. My next rifle is going to be a .62 rifle with forsyth rifleing of 1 in 95" twist. The idea is to get more velocity out of this round ball to equal some of the energy figures of some of the popular African cartridges used on dangerous game. Then I have to test it on some big critters.

[T*O*F]

Friend of mine shot this in Alaska in 2010 while hunting caribou.  He had bought a bear tag on a whim.  He had been hunting with a 45-70 BPCR but all the shots were too far away, so he brought his backup gun on this day.  One shot and they had to track it a bit.  Found it down and administered the coupe de grace.  He also got a caribou at 450 yards measured with a range finder.

[Dphariss]

They are increasingly coming to gunshots south of here in Northern Wyoming and with our warm winter this year they have staid active.

I had been running around south of town with the 50 and while the bears here are generally small no Gbear is small enough.
I may end up making another Manton style rifle a 62. The 16 bore recoil is a little much for my aging carcass.
Since deer hunting has tanked north of town I will likely spend a lot more time in the "gbear habitat" next hunting season looking for deer and elk there.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Haven hunted African plains game and spent some time discussing  caliber preferences with several professional hunters along with black powder shooters over there I have been converted to the larger calibers of .58 to .72 for my black powder hunting rifles. Not that my .40 and .50 calibers didnt do the job on 7 whitetail I have shot. It's just that a big round ball punches a big hole with more foot pounds of energy making it a more effective tool for any game weather dangerous or not. My next rifle is going to be a .62 rifle with forsyth rifleing of 1 in 95" twist. The idea is to get more velocity out of this round ball to equal some of the energy figures of some of the popular African cartridges used on dangerous game. Then I have to test it on some big critters.

The twist will not change the velocity at all.
I idea that less friction increases velocity is not correct. Assuming the slower twist significantly reduces friction.
I would not go slower than 70-80 inches.
My 16 bore has 8 shallow grooves, narrow lands and will shoot all the powder I can stand without "stripping".
Normal load is 140 gr of FF Swiss and gives about 1600 with a 1 ounce ball. Forsythe was using 15 to the pound balls so this rifle is very ball park and gives very similar velocities to what forsythes 137 gr load did based on the trajectories he achieved. Remember the British used to increase the velocity of shotguns by ROUGHING the bore close to the breech to increase friction and pressure.
I can get it to 1750 &  about 3000 fpe, if thats important, with more powder but its a lot less fun. Getting a 62 to the level of even one of the milder "big game" calibers like the 450-400 NE  +- 4000 fpe would be a tall order.  A 12 ga ball at 1600 is between 30-06 and 300 win mag. Need a 11-10 gauge ball. At 1400 fps a 1000 gr ball makes  4350. Probably need 200 gr of powder perhaps significantly more.
I suppose if it were possible to get 2000 fps from a 350 gr ball its still 30-06 level for energy.
So getting the energy (which is really irrelevant in the world BP arms) to 375 H&H energy levels, the current small bore "standard" for dangerous game, is just not going to happen. The FPE favors high velocity and thus favors smokeless powder cartridges. A 130 gr 270 will make similar energies to my 160 bore top loads but would be less effective on a angry bear then the big RB would be.

The shallow grooves and narrow lands IS a great feature. The 16 bore loads easy and fouls very little with Swiss.

There s a lot of BS out there about Forsythe rifles, ridiculously heavy powder charges (by Forsythe's standards)  and so forth. Make a 62, load it to 1650 or 1700 and quite worrying about the energy figures.
His book is available for online download or reading on line.
http://www.archive.org/details/sportingriflean00forsgoog
This is the second edition. The one John Baird reprinted years ago is the first edition and the one I have.

Shooting large game with MLs requires hardened balls as detailed by Forsythe and John Taylor in "Pondoro".

Dan

[Naphtali]

I live in west central Montana near the Idaho border. Deer and elk hunting seasons are divided between a week on a friend's ranch in east-central Montana and Lolo National Forest 15 minutes from my home. Being well beyond middle age and being the proud possessor of a particularly virulent incurable autoimmune disease, caliber choice, for me, has a great deal to do with avoiding the whitetali or elk fleeing the area of its being shot.

Since Montana has no muzzleloading gun season - excepting a small number of gun restricted areas - I use a gunsmithed Kodiak Safari .72-caliber double rifle (775-grain custom bullet @ 30:1, 110-grains Goex FFg, CCI #11 Magnum cap). The load prints cloverleaves an inch high at 50 yards and has sufficient point of aim accuracy at 85 yards. It is still accurate to 125 yards, but holdover becomes challenging. Fortunately, effective accuracy and range of shots available coalesce.

What is supposed to happen - and so far has - is the animal is shot (so far not shot again) and falls/collapses/dies within a few seconds of bullet's impact. Since my position is determined by how conveniently I can field dress and pack out the animal, the hunting experience is pleasurable as well as effective within my limitations. Do I harvest animals every year? No. But the process will be manageable for decades, and that's as good as it gets.

Hope this helps.

[hanshi]

No grizzlies in Va, moose either.  We do have lots of black bears and of course deer.  The .45 has been a total success for me over the years and I'd trust it on bear.  I've also used the .50 and truly see no real need for anything larger.

[Vomitus]

  Rifled 14 or 16 bore if phobia is of bears, but a .62 rifled can handle moose and elk. So will a .54 or .58 if loaded appropriately. Wilf Krupp dropped a BIG bull with one shot from a fifty@75 yards! I just mentioned this because of the possibilities. I think the fifty to be a bit marginal on moose but if the right situation presented itself, I'd be very tempted to shoot.More gun is better.

[Daryl]

I personally like my .69. I also traded for a musketoon and a double .58 prior to getting "my .69" back, just to have 'at least' a .58.

I know of moose killed quite handily with a .45 RB - at 50 yards. I'd not try that myself unless I had to - I know it would work for a careful shot.  .50 is better and also works but I would prefer something .58 or larger for this country.

 I like larger and agree with Forsyth that a 14 bore is possibly the ultimate - close second would be a 16 bore. They both combine enough velocity for a 130yard point blank trajectory with smashing power for most animals encountered.  Neither has too much recoil for me at this time, although they do boot a bit.  I not be squirmish about shooting a large bear with one - as long as I had a backup of some sort handy.

[mark esterly]

don't know about the bear but my squirrel rifle is a .58 cal.

[leatherman]

You are correct Dphariss the .62 round ball will not come close to the African dangerous game calibers in foot pounds. I should have done the math before I wrote that. I have read Forsyths book and talked to a few people who have experience with large bore rifles with slow twist and shallow rifleing and there are those like you who question the extreme slow twists. I think Jason at Rice Barrels is correct in picking a 1-95 twist to make the run of .62 barrels. I guess all I am hopeing for is enough added velocity to give me good accuracy with a better trajectory out to 150 yards and a little added thump out at 150 yards . Keep in mind my rifle is being built for a specific purpose, that being for 300 to 1000 pound animals that are extremely difficult to get within 150 yards or 300 yards for that matter. My first choice would be a .72 but I want to try the .62 Forsyth barrels Rice is going to produce for the Whitesmoke guys in South Africa. We will be testing these rifles once we get some built this fall. I plan to do some apples to apples test between 1-66 twist, smooth bore .62 and the forsyth barrel. Hey it's another excuse to build another rifle!!

[excess650]

As for some background on a .62 in Forsyth style rifling, see Blackpowder Hunting magazine Summer 1998 issue.  Ross Seyfried wrote an article and had a pair of barrels that he used for comparison.  His Moody Metalworks barrel was twisted 1-96" and the Gaintwist barrel ended 1-90".  Velocities for 30" barrels were pretty impressive as were his benchrest/scope fired groups.  He used Goex ffg, (I suspect Moosic Pa powder).  Powder charges 100gr and above produced the best groups.

50gr 1103 fps
80gr 1381 fps
100gr 1520 fps
160gr 1793 fps

all with 340gr .610" ball.

I have a .58 and .62 that should be adequate for anything to be encountered in the east.  Pennsylvania may well have the heaviest black bears with numerous killed every year exceeding 600#.  800# have been taken, and according to the Pa Game Commission, there are bigger ones out there.  Luckily, black bears aren't generally as aggressive as grizz.  Yeah, elk in Pa as well if you're lucky enough to draw a tag.  I think there are elk in Kentucky and Virginia as well.

My 8# .62 Jaeger is pretty comfortable with 100gr or even 120gr.  With 140gr it gets a bit rambunctious.  Its twisted 1-66".

[bob in the woods]

I hunt black bears with a .54 and have taken many deer with a .50  I would be happy and well served if I only had either, although I'd prefer the .54    The game which made me want for a larger cal was not bear, but rather, moose. I built an Edward Marshal .62 specifically for moose.  A moose at close quarters in the alders is " inspiring"

[Ezra]

What's a good, all round calibre for where you hunt?

Sheesh, if I saw that coming towards me I don't know what would happen first, heart attack or peeing my pants and screaming like a girl!  My next rifle is gonna be a .58 and will be sufficient for elk here in Washington.  Previously I have used a .50.


Ez

[Jerry V Lape]

British advice for dangerous game blackpowder rifles was a 10ga would do if you couldn't find an 8ga. 

[Daryl]

Apparently, an Alberta barrel maker is now thinking on making up 'bore' sized barrels in 4140 or 4150, with a gain twist and shallow, slow twists.  I'll try to get the particulars.  He's merely got feelers out right now.

The basic problem with large bores, is their looping trajectory.  High trajectory can be OK for close quarters like on the pictured bear, but lousy past 50 yards, when exact range must be known to pinpoint impact.   On a moose, again, it's fine, but on a deer with only an 8" to 10" kill area, 12" of trajectory over 110yards can get you into trouble.  Too, in order to get the large balls going fast enough to have resonably low trajectory and actually do damage, the powder charge must be up guite high and recoil rears it's ugly head. A normal 'African' load for an 8 bore, is 10 drams, 273gr. of powder. A 10 bore will, of course, work with less, but charges well over 120gr. are needed for decent trajectory and with a 630gr. ball, recoil can become obnoxious, not to mention packing around a 12 to 14 pound rifle.

 

[Dphariss]

British advice for dangerous game blackpowder rifles was a 10ga would do if you couldn't find an 8ga. 

Forsythe, hunting in India, states that the 16 bore is about as small as anyone would use for dangerous game.
His 14 bore rifle with a 15 gauge ball would drive a hardened ball through an Indian Elephants head from side to side with a charge of 5 drams of powder. Hall's #2 IIRC. Probably similar to FFF or FF.

Africa needed a larger bore for the larger Elephant and Rhino. John Taylor killed a number of Elephant and Rhino with a hardened 10 bore RB and 6 drams of powder but stated he would not have wanted to face a charge with it due to less penetration than the modern arms he used.

If hunting where a Gbear problem is possible or likely I would shoot hardened lead. Penetration will trump expansion in this case caliber would be 58 up.

Eastern Black Bears are known for being big. All it takes is food. Our bears don't eat that well. Could be genetics too I suppose.
The problem with BB is they tend to eat humans if they attack them. There is one account of a victim in AK surviving having both legs and I think an arm eaten buy a black bear.
Anything that eats meat can be a threat once in their territory.
There is one documented instance of a woman being killed by coyotes in far eastern Canada
http://articles.cnn.com/2009-10-29/entertainment/canada.singer.killed_1_coyotes-taylor-mitchell-canadian-folk-singer?_s=PM:SHOWBIZ
But its getting little off topic
The Nat Geo special on this is worth watching. Eastern Coyotes are genetically different than the western variety.

Dan

[Dphariss]

Apparently, an Alberta barrel maker is now thinking on making up 'bore' sized barrels in 4140 or 4150, with a gain twist and shallow, slow twists.  I'll try to get the particulars.  He's merely got feelers out right now.

The basic problem with large bores, is their looping trajectory.  High trajectory can be OK for close quarters like on the pictured bear, but lousy past 50 yards, when exact range must be known to pinpoint impact.   On a moose, again, it's fine, but on a deer with only an 8" to 10" kill area, 12" of trajectory over 110yards can get you into trouble.  Too, in order to get the large balls going fast enough to have resonably low trajectory and actually do damage, the powder charge must be up guite high and recoil rears it's ugly head. A normal 'African' load for an 8 bore, is 10 drams, 273gr. of powder. A 10 bore will, of course, work with less, but charges well over 120gr. are needed for decent trajectory and with a 630gr. ball, recoil can become obnoxious, not to mention packing around a 12 to 14 pound rifle.

 

I am in the market for a alloy steel barrel that will take a .662 ball twist no faster than 1:72.

Maybe a PAIR of 20 bores for a SXS rifle. Similar to what Stewart used out here. Can't be that hard to regulate
Geez that bucket list could get long. Darn it.

While Forsythe comments considerably on trajectory and shoots deer at ranges to 250 yards as we  know many times dangerous game is shot at feet rather than yards. 25-30 yards being a long shot at African elephant in many areas, I have read, so an 8 or 4 bore even with a high trajectory was acceptable. Penetration being the primary concern.
Selous used 2 or 3  smooth 4 bores for elephant into the 1870s. These only weighed about 12-13 pounds IIRC. This is about 5 pounds or more too light for this work.
Recoil was vicious, the powder being loaded by the hand full. He stated he wished he had never used them since the recoil effected his shooting for the rest of his life. Given the powder he used, coarse trade powder, I doubt that the velocity was very much over 1300-1400.
In watching the outdoor channel there is often African Elephant hunting featured and sometimes the shots ARE very close, 10 yards maybe less at a charging elephant. They still use double rifles a lot. The reason is as John Taylor and others pointed out, nothing is faster for a second shot.

Dan