Anone know of a gunsmith with a touch mark of JW?

[Dennis Glazener]

I took this rifle apart to make a pattern for the stock. When I removed the buttplate to trace the profile of the butt on the stock blank, I noticed a small rectangular touchmark. As best I can tell with an eye loop it is a small rectangular punch with "J W" inside it. The rifle is assumed to be a Virgina rifle and the last location that I know of that it resided was west of Salem VA. I tried to get a photo but I can not get one that shows the mark.

Below are a couple of photos of the rifle, anyone have any idea who J W might have been?
Dennis

[G-Man]

Ah...one of my favorite rifles. 

Ian or Gary might be able to help me out - but wasn't there a John Wilson working in that area by 1800?  I have only seen one other John WIlson rifle - it was a bit more "mountain" looking but still relatively early as far as such pieces go - maybe 1800-1810.  I do not recall if it was signed or stamped iwth initials.  Ian - it was the one that was at Mel's show a couple of years back. 

Guy

[Dennis Glazener]

Thanks Guy, appreciate the lead.

I was pleased to see that the tapered barrel appears to be the original barrel for this rifle. The tennons and sight dove tails are really shallow and appear to have been "lifted" with a chisel. The rear sight is only .076 above the barrel (that's the rear of the sight). The base, on the sides, not counting the slightly raised file work, is only .055 and that included what's in the dovetail slot! No way could I make a sight base that thin and then get it installed in a dovetail!
Dennis

[G-Man]

The delicate work they could acheive with simpler shop setups, natural lighting and limitations on corrective lenses in those days is truly amazing.

[Dennis Glazener]

I finally got a decent photo of the stamp, shown below. Under a eye loop there is no question that the second letter is a W. The first letter I am sure is a J but the tail of the J is sure small in comparison to the T top part of it. You can even see a square dot between the J and the W.
Dennis

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

That is a great gun!! Nice flow.

[mr. no gold]

This is a superb southern gun and one that any of us would like to have hanging on the wall. Sorry, can't help you with a possible maker. This fellow must have been one of those legenday builders whose work was instantly recognizable, and so he didn't bother to sign it. It's a grand gun, and we thank you for putting it here to be seen. Hope that it is your gun and not someone elses.
Dick

[bgf]

It is a really nice rifle.  There is a John Wilson rifle signed in script in Shumways MuzzleBlasts vol. II.  I've liked that rifle for a while, but it doesn't look all that similar to this one, either, at least to me.   Shumway does mention that Wilson was believed to have worked just north of Roanoke, though.

[G-Man]

I have not had the opportunity to completely disassemble many iron mounted antique rifles  - perhaps some of the guys who have done restoration work would know more about this, but I believe touchmarked iron mounts on American rifles would be very rare.  I have never heard of any before.

Perhaps a feature of a shop with numerous gunsmiths working on various tasks?  Maybe even a semi-military state contract piece?  Or as Tom Patton has suggested, perhaps iron mongers making up batches of iron hardware?  Very curious.

Does anyone know if they marked iron mounts in this manner on European guns?

Regardless, it really is a superb piece.  The patchbox form is right in keeping with the area it was found in and given its superb condition, I suspect the gun was put up from use long ago and stayed right there in that area till you obtained it Dennis.  We discussed this rifle a few years back and were it not for the lock a 1780s date would not surprise me for that rifle.  But I still think it relatively early as far as these pieces go - perhaps 1790-1800.

Guy

[Chris Treichel]

nice piece. I really like these plain working arms.
 
If you want to bring out a small stamp or inscription against a dark background like that even if its been rubbed/polished off...  Sprinkle a bit of talcum powder on it and blow or brush it off with a paint brush.  You should be able to read it better/take a picture of it.  Once you take the picture you can just take one of those electronic cleaner "can of air" and remove all of the talcum with no damage to the item.

Trick I lerned taking pictures of makers marks and inscriptions on old swords many of which hve been polished and had marks worn down...

[Ephraim]

The delicate work they could acheive with simpler shop setups, natural lighting and limitations on corrective lenses in those days is truly amazing.


[
I think they had better eye sight than we do because they didn't have the strong lighting we have to day.
I feel the harsh lighting of to day is hard on our eyes.
Ephraim/quote]

[bgf]

The "J" is starting to look more like a "Y"  to me rather than a "J", but I am just looking at the picture and may be seeing it wrong.  Y+W wouldn't really help either, would it ?

[Dennis Glazener]

If you want to bring out a small stamp or inscription against a dark background like that even if its been rubbed/polished off...  Sprinkle a bit of talcum powder on it and blow or brush it off with a paint brush.  You should be able to read it better/take a picture of it.  Once you take the picture you can just take one of those electronic cleaner "can of air" and remove all of the talcum with no damage to the item.

Trick I lerned taking pictures of makers marks and inscriptions on old swords many of which hve been polished and had marks worn down...

Thanks, will have to remember that. I don't have any problem seeing the marks with a eye loop on, just interpreting them  The "J" has a very thick cross on top of it and the "stem" tapers as it goes toward the "curl" at the bottom. I really believe its a "J" even though the "curl" becomes rather skinny. The "W" is pretty straight forward except there is a glob of rust over the right side of it. I hate to try to remove the rust glob.
Dennis

[Don Getz]

Dennis.....I had to think a while before I did this, but, we had a builder here in Juniata County, one of only a few that we
know of.    His name was John Watt, or "J W" , however, he signed his name, or initials, on top of the barrel by using a
center punch.    He would do it by making a series of dots to form the letters.   Actually he made a rather crude gun,
nothing fancy, no inlays, etc.............Don

[Dennis Glazener]

Don,
I may have seen one of his. I know I have seen a couple of different rifles that had the makers name/initials "pecked-out" out using a center punch!
Dennis

[HIB]

Dennis,  A good number of years ago I bought several guns [4] from a rather nice collection of PA. guns. Each one had a small, hard to see, touch mark similar to what you have found. These marks were right under what you would refer to as the heel of the butt plate. Definitely small and hard to see.  After spending a few hours it dawned on me that the mark was applied by the owner of the collection the guns came from.

I have since seen many different identifiers stamped or written on the inside of the butt plate and side plate.  Seems like a good idea for any collector who fears his guns might be stolen.

Probably not a solution to your question but food for thought.  HIB

[Dennis Glazener]

I have since seen many different identifiers stamped or written on the inside of the butt plate and side plate.  Seems like a good idea for any collector who fears his guns might be stolen.

Probably not a solution to your question but food for thought.  HIB
   

Thanks HIB, will remember that. I shouldn't do it but I usually can't refrain from taking a rifle apart to see what I can see. Of course if there is danger of damaging it I don't do it.
Dennis