rifling rods

[mkeen]

I'm currently working on an article about a Lancaster County, PA gunsmith from the second half of the 1700's. On his inventory there are three rifling rods listed. On the inventory for Philip LeFevre in 1766 there are 5 rifling rods.  I'm not a gun builder and do not have expertise in this area. Are the number of rifling rods any indication of how many different calibers the gunsmith made? Does the number of rifling rods mean anything?

Mart Keen

[Tony Clark]

Mart, Yes a different cutter and rod is needed for varying calibers. Also if he were to use a different furrow and land configuration in similar calibers. Could you point out where it would be possible for others to see the inventory your referring to? You can find a lot of information right here not only pertaining to this question. If you run your thoughts through here having to do with this subject I am sure you will be provided with a lot of additional information some of which you may not have considered.

[Don Getz]

What you call "rifling rods" are really "freshing sticks".   They would use these every time the lands, or barrel in general,
would become worn.   They would insert a stick into the barrel and pour a lead lap around the end of the stick.   They
would then remove a section of the lap that was in the groove and insert a steel cutter.  Then would pull this cutter thru
each groove to deepen them.    They might also make a cutter to slide over the tops of the lands to clean them up, this
would also make the bore slightly bigger.   Since those old barrels were forged from wrought iron, they were soft and
would wear quickly if shot a lot.  By freshing the barrel you would return it to a good shooting condition.......Don

[Tony Clark]

Don the reason I was doubtful that they were freshing rods is there were 5 of them. Freshing rods are a 1 shot deal aren't they? Why would someone keep 5 used ones? I'd think it would make more sense to melt the lap off and reuse the lead to just cast a new lap for the next freshing. Know what I mean? I was thinking that if you could look at the ledger it would be easier to determine what was going on.

[mkeen]

Thanks for the information Tony. I had not thought of various configurations of the lands and furrows. The inventory has never been published. I'm working on Christian Hess of Lancaster County, PA. No relation of the Hess family of the Allameangal school. Christian is not mentioned in Wood and Whiskers book, Arms Makers of Lancaster County. He is on Sam Dyke's list of Lancaster County gunsmiths and consequently is on the KRA list. Sam's list put him in Lancaster Borough which is false. I have never heard of a gun made by Christian Hess, although he could write in German script and had at least a 40 year career of making rifles. The 1794 date on the KRA list is his date of death. I'm an officer and on the Board of Directors of the group that takes care of the cemetery where he is buried. He is a sixth great uncle of mine. He never married and had no children.

On the inventory are listed sundry small gun smith tools, 1 chihsel, 3 files, 1 vice, old coppar, 1 box with brass mountings for guns, 3 iron rods for drawing ryfels, 1 old anvel & iron, and 1 old ryfel worth £1. The spellings are as they appear on the inventory.  In his will he left his anvil, bellows, and vice to three of his nephews. All three of the nephews were blacksmiths but none of them took up gunsmithing. The article will be published in April 2012 right after the exhibit opens at Landis Valley on Lancaster gunsmiths.
Sorry I don't have his ledger. I really wish I did. The inventory is what has to filed for the estate. Its interesting that he was never called a gunsmith until he died.

Mart Keen

[Gaeckle]

Those are most likely rods attached to the lead. The lead determines the rate of twist. I have 8 old barrels and with the exception of one they are all slow twist. They are small calibers the largest being 41, the smallest being almost 30. Seeing this and others that I have looked at I have to believe that the old smiths utilized just one rate of twist, rifled the barrel, completed the gun and handed it off to the customer so that the customer needed to determine how much powder to use, what patch worked best, so forth and so on.

The old barrels that I own show pronounced milling marks on the bottom. This indicates that they may have been produced at a barrel mill, rifled at the mill then sold on trade routes to various people. It may also be that these were just blanks sold to makers who had rifling machines.

Either way, I always find it interesting that when examining an old barrel the rate of twist is mostly very slow. Even for small calibers which should have faster twists. I've built a number of rifles around some of these barrels and with the correct amount of tinkering they shoot pretty darn good....even if the barrels are rough.

[smokinbuck]

Tony,
As Don has said, they were probably Freshing rods. I have an "OLD" rifling machine from Geo Brammers shop on Lawrence County, Ohio and there are about 150 different freshing heads that came freom the same shop. They weren't one timers but were more likely used over and over.  I can't post pictures but would send some to antyone interested, unless someone wants to post a few.
Mark

[Tony Clark]

I agree the "3 iron rods for drawing ryfels" sound like they were for freshing. Mark if you want to send me some of the pics I'll post them here.

[mkeen]

One of the problems with inventories is we can never be exactly sure what the appraisers were thinking. Christian Hess's inventory was taken by Heinrich Güth and Heinrich Dietrich, neither of whom are on any list of Lancaster County gunsmiths. As a comparison, the inventory for Philip LeFevre in 1766 lists "To five Rifling rods & 14 boreing rods. One of the appraisers on his inventory was the gunsmith Joel Ferree. Philip LeFevre's inventory has been published in Sam Dyke's The Pennsylvania Rifle published in 1974.

Mart Keen

[smokinbuck]

Tony,
I can get some pictures off to you but I will need an email.
Mark

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

This is a link to the topic "making a cutter for rifling" in the gun building section.  While the iron rod shown there is not original (it is 35 yers old) it was copied from an original.  I have access to a shoebox full of freshening rods from the Fry brothers gun shop of Ligonier, Pa. along with their rifling machine (19th c period). I do not think that the description in the inventory are for freshening sticks, they sound like rods for cutting the rifle grooves to me.  Maybe later I can post some photos of the freshening rods.

Jim Everett


http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=17991.0

[Tony Clark]

OK, now I have to admit I am confused about this. I thought I had a pretty good understanding of it all since I have my own rifling machine which I built as a copy of one in the Milwaukee Public Museum and I understand that process along with forging a barrel since I've also done that. I have a fully equipped B.S. shop, the real deal. Now, I've never freshed a barrel, but I know for certain I  could walk into my shop and do it simply by memory of what I've read and seen.

So, Mark is sending me pics (which I'm trying to post) showing all these cutter heads from barrel freshing. The laps cast in the bores of various guns w/ an inserted cutter to deepen the grooves. What I'm not understanding here is, I thought these were not reusable? It's my understanding that when you fresh you have to cast a lap in the bore for that particular barrel.... you can't use and old lap again or can you? Could someone please enlighten me?

Mart, in LeFevre's inventory it mentions rifling and boring rods so I think its reasonable to assume he was boring and rifling barrels. Now the other inventory just mentions "drawing rods" and nothing else related to rifling barrels so I would say they were freshing rods. Freshing had to be one of the most common tasks a gunsmith performed. They all had to do that while not all gunsmiths were set up to rifle barrels.

[Bob Roller]

Tony,
The late Bill Large had HUNDREDS of rifling heads that were used for recutting or "freshing out" as he called it. They all were wooden dowels with the cutter set between two lead or babbit pilots that were cast around them.The cutters were adjusted by shimming them with cigarette papers or onion skin writing paper.  He told me it was very rare for any of them to be used from one barrel to another.They were primarily one use tools and then into the big drawer under his bench. Back in the early 1950's.there were few if any new RIFLED barrels made for muzzle loaders and recutting was the only hope of getting one restored. Bill started doing the recutting when he was about 15 years old and that would have been 1922 and did it until perhaps 1960 but by then,new barrels were available not only from Bill but others as well. The last one he tried to recut was from an original very heavy Hawken belonging to the late Tom Dawson. It had a very hard place in the bore that defied all efforts at ordinary recutting. Bill decided to ream it and it reduced the OD of the reamer and ruined it. The next option was a carbide reamer which barely did the job but left the bore to big so a liner was installed and the old J&S Hawken got back on the range again.
When we deal with relics,sometimes only God knew what the thing was made from because the people that made that Hawken barrel certainly didn't.

Bob Roller

[Tony Clark]

Exactly Bob, they were one use tools. Why someone would keep them though I have a hard time understanding? But thats just me, my shop is already packed full to the brim. Another thing I wanted to point out to Mark aka smokinbuck is that those freshing heads were not used with the rifling machine you have. Freshing is done just with the lap cast in the bore that follows that particular barrels rifling.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Apparently gunsmiths did indeed keep a box of used freshening rods and did not reuse the lead.  One thought is that rifles were freshed very often, probably from corrosion, not from wear.  I surmise that an active rifle user would have his barrel freshed each year.  The gunsmith would keep neighbor Joe Smith's freshening rod around for use in the same barrel next year.  Probably this could never be confirmed, but it is likely.  Anyways, here is a photo of a box of about 100 - 150 freshening rods from the Fry gunshop, mid 19th c., Ligonier, Westmoreland Co., Pa.



These are wood rods with a long bore cast lead section that was modified to hold a cutter for the land and a cutter for the groove.  The wood rod has a brass cross pin at the wood/lead intersection and a brass ferrule where the rod attached to a push/pull rod.









The cutter bits were made to cut on both the push and pull directions with the cutter teeth at about a 45 drgree angle to the bore axis.  They were adjusted by paper shims placed under the cutter bit.





Let me know if anyone wishes more information on freshening rods.

Jim Everett

[Tony Clark]

I think barrels required freshing because wrought iron quickly became worn not so much because they were prone to corrosion. Wrought iron is actually very resistant to corrosion as compared to steel.
I'd also say those cutters were not intended to cut in both directions I believe it would be standard practice to cut the barrel in one direction, from breech to muzzle for example, and they were not pulled just pushed.
It makes sense to assume that maybe these laps would or could have been used over to some extent when the customer came back in for the next freshing. If this is the case I'm wondering why there would not be some type of identifying marks on them so the smith would know what lap he used on which barrel?

Jim Everett if you have some more information on freshening rods lets here it.

[mkeen]

These are wood rods with a long bore cast lead section that was modified to hold a cutter for the land and a cutter for the groove.  The wood rod has a brass cross pin at the wood/lead intersection and a brass ferrule where the rod attached to a push/pull rod.


Let me know if anyone wishes more information on freshening rods.

Jim Everett

Jim:

Is the push/pull rod wood or metal?

Mart Keen

[Tony Clark]

Jim:

Is the push/pull rod wood or metal?

Mart Keen
[/quote]


Hi Mart, sorry I know I'm not Jim but I thought I would just say I like the logic your using in trying to determine what the inventory means. What occurs to me is that if the rods referenced in the 1st inventory called "drawing rods" were just plain rods and no type of cutter attached there would be no way of identifying them as such. They would just be iron rods. So I guess what I'm saying is they had to have the lap and cutter attached in my opinion.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

I do not have the original rods in my collection, so I do not know for sure if they were wood or metal.  However, inside the brass ferrule there are marks left by a machine screw type thread, finer threads than a wood screw thread.  So, I suspect that the rod, or at least the connector to the wood freshening rod, was metal with a machine thread on the end. 

As another note, when I rifle a barrel (not freshening) the cut is only on the pull stroke.  After the cut, the shim/shoe is removed and the cutter returned back to the muzzle end with no pressure, it just rides back.  The rifling rod is just too thin and unstable to cut on the push stroke.  It does seem to me that these freshening cutters were used to cut on both the push & pull strokes.  It would be really difficult to use these otherwise because the cutters would have to be removed and replaced for each stroke.  So Mr. Fry made his cutter bits to cut (actually scrape) on both strokes.

Jim Everett

[Tony Clark]

It does seem to me that these freshening cutters were used to cut on both the push & pull strokes.  It would be really difficult to use these otherwise because the cutters would have to be removed and replaced for each stroke.  So Mr. Fry made his cutter bits to cut (actually scrape) on both strokes.

Jim Everett

It wouldn't be difficult to push that cutter through from the breech to the muzzle and than repeat that process... why would the cutter have to be removed? You would simply push it through, it drops out, you place it back in the breech end and push it through again. are you saying these rods are threaded on the end to attach to a longer rod? In the wood?? And what about the re-use of them? how would the gunsmith know which lap he had used in a previous barrel? I am hoping you can teach me something because that is always a good thing.

[Glenn]

WOW ... What a find.  I wonder if there are many museums across the country that could indentify those if they were asked to without being told/hinted first what they really are ...

[James Wilson Everett]

Tony,

Thanks for your great observations.  We really wish that these old tools could talk to us and tell us these details.  A very close inspection of the cutter teeth shows that they are symetrical from the push/pull direction.  The teeth are not biased one way or the other.  This is unlike rifling cutters that cut only in one direction.  As for removing the cutter after a stroke, it is apparent that this was not done as it requires some delicate "finagling" to get the cutter out of the lead.  Probably this was only done when placing an additional paper shim under the cutter.

As for the surmise that the gunsmith would reuse a specific cutter on the same barrel next year, it does give a reasonable explanation as to why well over 100 freshening rods were kept and not melted and recast for the next barrel.  It is interesting that only a very few of the cutter bits remain among so very many freshening rods.

Anyway, here is a related tool that was used in a smoothbore gun.  I assume it was used to smooth out a rough sopt in the bore.  The cutter is missing, but it was very mush more wide than a rifle groove freshening cutter.

Jim Everett

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

We have wandered far from the original question about rifling rods.  So I will be starting a topic on barrel freshening under the gun building discussion board, please join it there so we can continue this.

Jim Everett

[Gaeckle]

Great photo Jim! Can you determine from those rods twist rate? Do you notice any relationship between rate of twist and caliber size? In other words, we are accustomed to having a fast twist rate for small caliber and a slow one for large caliber.....is the same evident from those rods?

[James Wilson Everett]

Holy Smokes!  Gaeckle - you are talking about a lot of research here, that I haven't done.

THEREFOR - I hereby assign this work to you!  The rods are a part of a great collection of the Fry's gunsmith tools in the collection at the Fort Ligonier museum in Ligonier, Pa.  So get in there and get to work - give us a report!

Good Luck
Jim Everett