Lock inletting

[Roger Fisher]

Layer by layer, scrape, scrape and scrape some more.  I am used to going and doing things the hard way;  but I'm very much stuck in my ways and if I want to improve I better get my git along going

[eagle24]

I personally haven't inletted the lock without disassembly.  I do think it's important to consider other ways than you use to complete a task.  Bottom line, it Wallace and Mark use the method and think it is a good process, it at the very least deserves some consideration, even if you can't envision it being a good process.

Jim

I get what you are saying Jim, but I still don't see an answer to the question of why you would want to inlet the lock assembled.  If Mark and Wallace "use this method and think it is a good process", there most certainly has to be a reason.  I would love to hear it, because I can't come up with anything other than saving about 2 minutes time in tearing the lock down and reassembling it.

[Bob Roller]

Jim,
You're right. I think what triggered this response was the comment about the unwillingness of most people to pay for a detailed lock. I have had too many negative experiences with that crowd. I am glad to not hear all the lies and BS anymore.
The finest inletting IMHO was done during the Victorian era in England. I have owned some of these rifles and the lock mechanism inletting was stunning and as was noted,even the screw slots were inletted. Most of the internal inletting,including my own looks like it was done by a colony of termites and a shingle hatchet . Last summer,I made a bridle for a four screw lock,a fine antique and it had to be close enought to fit this kind of inletting and the owned did the final few adjustments it needed to refit it to the rifle. It was a Whitworth of some kind.
I will try not to go off topic next time.

Bob Roller

[bgf]

Being too precise on inletting the internals can cause problems when the wood swells or shrinks, microscopically, as it will.  I beat myself up for losing a couple of slivers of wood in the inlet due mainly to lack of concern, but after seeing a couple of problems on rifles where the wood interfered with the lock (which worked perfectly until it didn't), I am probably closer to embracing the "hog it out" school than the British lock inletting guild, which suits my personality just fine anyway .

PS.  Mr. Roller -- Termites and a shingle hatchet?  You have the deluxe set !

[Acer Saccharum]

I am fastidious about my vent/pan location, tip of the plate, etc.

 I take my locks apart, as I can locate a plate better without all the $#@* on it than I can with sear leg holding the lock way up in the air, trying to eyeball the lock location.

[James Rogers]

I think the "British" lock inletting system is a 19th century thing based on what I have seen.
I think the point to recognize in this method is the possibility that this could have been the common method of installation back when and the attempt to embrace that method. Import locks coming over here made and ready to go on a gun. No need to take it apart to take of the rough casting surface. Already cased and ready to go?

[Swampwalker]

I'm willing to concede that if a smith was stocking up a rifle/gun every 2-3 weeks, and had been doing so for a number of years, inletting the lock in layers (by components) would probably not be necessary on a flintlock.  But I bet the mid-19th century British stockers working on high end guns did inlet in layers.  When a lock must fit precisely with a breech I can't imagine NOT fitting the plate first!  Why make things harder (and more time consuming) for yourself? 

[Dennis Glazener]

Whats the advantage to inletting with assembled lock?

I believe once I get the hang of it, it will be faster and hopefully allow me to have tighter inletting on the internals.
Dennis

[Dennis Glazener]

There is no doubt that inletting a disassembled lock is the more common and accepted approach today, but there are at least a couple of the very best builders who have used the approach of inletting when assembled.  Wallace Gusler showed this approach in the "Gunsmith of Williamsburg" film and Mark Silver uses this technique in his video on rifle stocking.  So I guess in my mind the point of this post is not necessarily just a poll of what method people use, but to consider there are other less common techniques used by some of the most accomplished builders.

Jim,
I saw Wallace inlet the lock in his "Gunsmith of Williamsburg" film and was intrigued by how easy he made it look. I decided to give it a try and being successful doing it the first time I tried it again. I am still not comfortable doing it that way but I believe once I get used to it I will prefer doing it that way.
Dennis

[Dave Faletti]

Dennis.  I see how an assembled lock might be faster but how would doing it that way make for a better fit.  I am just making rifles for myself  so quality and odds of success matter but time is not a factor(within limits ).

[Jim Kibler]

I will have to give this method a try.  As I said before, if it works well for Wallace and Mark, I'm certain it is a good method.  One other point that needs to be made is that what we think of as a high quality inlet today is much different that the vast majority of those on 18th or 17th century work.  Even very high quality guns.  I think it's safe to say, that both Wallace and Mark are attempting to produce work that fits in this framework.  Obsessive inlets are by and large a product of the 19th century.

[Don Getz]

Jim......I heard that Mark Silver inlet his locks while they were completely assembled.    While at Conner Prairie I watched
Mark Work..........kind of like watching grass grow.     I wonder how many weeks it takes him to inlet a lock?   Just
joking, he is slow, but it's difficult to knock his methods, they all seem to turn out pretty good...........Dpm

[Jim Kibler]

Don,

If you've watched him in the video, he is far from slow.  I think he stocked up the entire gun in three or four days.  I'm serious.  I remember the lock inlettting shown.  He wasn't messing around.  Perhaps he has changed how he works to some degree.

Everyone,

My last comment will be this.  I know everybody has their own ideas and we all have an ego.  Perhaps some don't know some of the most accomplished builders, how they work and the result they get.  For those who do, I think it goes without saying that their methods should be given serious consideration.  Results matter.  It seems this is overlooked sometimes on a message board such as this where everyone wants to share their opinions and methods.

Jim

Jim

[BJH]

After the first gun I built 20+ years ago I haven't tryed to inlet a complete lock with guts at one time. The inletting  looked  as if a runaway squad of termites with broad axes did it! I have not done one that way since. Period inlets on the antique american guns I have been priveleged to dissamble, tended to be rough with decent fits only where needed for function and appearence. My guess is some period workmen likely may have inletted the lock as a unit at least part of the time.

[Bob Roller]

Obsessive inlets. THAT is an intriguing definition and I am supposing that it refers to the super quality work found on the very top of the line English work. I have admired this level of skill for decades and often wondered HOW they did it and what kind of tools were employed. "Obsessive"work seem to dominate the gun shops of the UK when the rifles and pistols of that day are examined closely today.
I was and am very interested in their lock filing and have succeeded in making what are considered to be very close copies of some of the "4 pin"locks found on the better grades of rifles and shotguns of that era.
Coming back  to the USA,I wonder if any of the super class muzzle loaders such as the N.Whitmore Target Rifle presented to General Grant have this level of inletting in the lock mortise. I doubt if we will ever know.
We have mentioned termites,broad axes and shingle hatchets which of course go to farce but really,is anyone even trying to do a world class inlet on any lock parts except the plate?

Bob Roller

[Don Getz]

Jim.........I have always admired Mark's work, just flawless.   If he has a fault, he is just too @!*% serious.  As for inletting
a lock that is assembled, I don't think I would know where to start.  Steve Alexander used to do a session at Conner
Prairie, and he had a stock from an english rifle.  He used it to demonstrate how well the lock inlet was.  It almost appeared to be plastic, every part of the lock was inlet without any chisel marks.    I have no idea of how they did it, was
just perfect, and so far beyond my capabilities.   That's why I enjoy buildiing barn guns, no one would expect to see a
"perfect" lock inlet.........Don

[Jim Kibler]

I would say that inlets by good builders today generally exceed what was typically on gun in the period they are working (18th century).  Not many are working on mid 19th century British stuff these days, so I don't think the drive for perfection in inletting is there.  Personally if I were working on such a project, I would try to make an inlet as perfect as possible since this is a defining feature of these guns.  When working on 17th and 18th century stuff, an absolute perfect inlet to mid 19t century standards generaly has no place in my mind.  Now if someone chose to work in this manner I wouldn't fault them, but it's really not necessary.

Jim

[bob in the woods]

I can appreciate the mirror image of the lock insides, that some inlets display. From an artistic stand point only. I had a rifle which had a lock inlet that was "obsessive", and the lock action was not consistent, slow at times, simply because of the fact that I used the rifle in all weather and less than ideal conditions. Canoes, snow,outdoors for a week at a time, and each time I'd smokethe lock and find another small spot that was too tight. So I'd carefully scrape the black of the inlet and eventually got ticked off and just relieved the whole darn thing to a "workman like manner". Problems fixed , permanently.  I no longer like seeing screw heads etc finely detailed in the mortice. A 1/8th screw head gets a 3/16th inlet when I build a gun. I build them for shooting.

[Dennis Glazener]

Dennis.  I see how an assembled lock might be faster but how would doing it that way make for a better fit.  I am just making rifles for myself  so quality and odds of success matter but time is not a factor(within limits Grin).
   

It just seemed to me that I could better inlet for the internals. Once marked by the in-letting black I would then measure the depth from the lock plate then drill to that depth for the screw heads, same way on the other internals once spotted I cut to that depth. I know it doesn't make sense but for some reason it just seemed to turn out better than the judicious "hogging" out that I end up doing when I start with a disassembled lock. I can assure you that neither one that I did had the English "mirror image" look Try it for yourself then decide whether you like it or not.
Dennis

[Acer Saccharum]

I could certainly get a lock inlet in one piece, but I would not be able to locate it precisely. When you look at old work, 'precise' was not part of the language of some builders. Words like 'practical' and 'expedient' and 'functional' come to mind.

This does not make a work bad or good; it's not about that at all. But the overall appearance of the work shows the man's hand, and his philosophy of his workstyle and habits. Parts location is just as much of the equation as fit and finish, quality of components, etc.

There, I'm not saying anymore.

For now.

Tom

[Bob Roller]

I try to attain the mid 19th century standards for lock making and have for many years. I can look at a job and tell you what the man that did it thinks of himself and what's even more important,his customer. I have owned a few of the English rifles of the mid 19th century and never had to redo an inlet. One thing is certain,we have much better material today to make locks from than anyone working in the mid 19th century had and I use it almost daily.

Bob Roller

[Jim Kibler]

I try to attain the mid 19th century standards for lock making and have for many years. I can look at a job and tell you what the man that did it thinks of himself and what's even more important,his customer. I have owned a few of the English rifles of the mid 19th century and never had to redo an inlet. One thing is certain,we have much better material today to make locks from than anyone working in the mid 19th century had and I use it almost daily.

Bob Roller

In reality, I would speculate the typical mid 19th century English craftsman, (gun stocker, lock filer etc.) cared little for his work in a romantic sense.  He worked to the quality standards that bosses expected for long hours and little compensation.  This time period was not a good one for the workman or craftsman (ie. those who actually did the work).

[Dave Faletti]

Dennis.  Now I see what your thinking is.  I made a drawing of my lock with different sections.  Each section has a different depth.  Everything in the end is referenced to the surface of the blank.  Inletting black shows where screw heads need inletting and the usual fine tuning of the inlet.  Getting proper clearance on the moving parts is the hard part still.  I want enough clearance for the finish and in case the wood swells/shrinks some that things won't bind up.

[westbj2]

The thread has pushed me out of the lurker category.  I agree with the thought that MOST of the "obsessive" inletting is a 19th century British thing, occasionally a Continental 19th century example is encountered and more rarely american work of that period
Reference was made to the "Grant" gun above.  I once had a percussion target rifle by E. Packert of Stratford Ont.  The overall workmanship was so spectacular (one of those guns that was more beautiful inside than out despite being very fancy)  that upon seeing the gun, Lynton observed that it was better than the "Grant" gun by a bit.  Apparently Lynton had worked on the "Grant" gun at some point.
Also once had a Billinghurst double rifle that compared to almost any British work.
Last summer Mark stopped by for an afternoon into the evening visit.  We talked about inletting the lock in an assembled state on early work.  Mark said he could do it in a good deal less time than by the piece.  We also agreed that work as in the Alex Henry below only could be done by the piece.



The complexity of the internals and their relationships to each other require a good deal of time and effort if the result is to rival the work above.   A rifle is now in the finishing stages using a hand made lock and I would take a picture of the mortise but the finish is drying as I type.  Anyway here is the lock before it was mounted.

[Bob Roller]

Is this the lock I made up for a Tennessee customer last year or something else?

Bob Roller