Testing .40 Patches & Velocities

[Herb]

On the Jan 27th targets, it seemed that 1950 to 2000 fps gave the best accuracy. So I calculated how many feet per second each grain of powder gave, by dividing the velocity by 70 grains of each powder.  Then to get 2000 fps with each of these 5 powders, I divided that number by each powder's fps/grain number.  See chart below.  The composite target on left is all the bullet strikes Jan 27 with no aiming bull.  Today, with shaders over the sights, and an aiming bar on each target, all else the same, I shot each powder with the charge calculated to give 2000 fps.  I used a damp cleaning patch on the seating jag, thus wiping the bore as I seated each ball.  Cleaned the bore after each target, as on the 27th.  The composite group is on the right, 26 shots.  I aimed better with the bar.  I am unable to account for the velocities.  I do not think wiping the bore affected them, maybe not even accuracy.  Maybe someone else can explain these velocities?

[smylee grouch]

Herb, it looks as though your groups got considerably better with that bar. Go for the best grouping load and cut that bar into 1/4 the size and try again. Looks like your gun is comming around nicley.   Smylee

[Dphariss]

Thanks, Maven.   I should have said "IBM type", mine is also a Dell with Windows Vista.  Don't know if this works on an Apple. .

"Command +" enlarges  Mac at least with Firefox

Dan

[Daryl]

To get back to normal on a PC- ctrl - until it reduces size by size, or ctrl 0 and it does goes back to normal in one click.

[Herb]

So I went out yesterday and shot Daryl and Smylee's loads.  Fitted better sight shaders.  Coned the muzzle enough that  a ,395 ball and .010 patch sit down flush with thumb pressure.  Made a bigger target aiming bar.  First I shot my 77.5 grains of Goex 2F to get a good velocity reading.  Then went to Smylee's 55.0 grains of Goex 2F.  If my grouping isn't as good as yours, I need better sighting.  Cleaned the bore after each group, but no wiping between shots.  Then to Daryl's 55.0 grains of Swiss 3F.  First ball was from a separate lot and loaded very hard.  That is why I kept shooting to see what would happen.  On Target 4, I ran out of .015 patches, thus four shots.  Target 5 I used .010 OxYoke which gave higher velocity.



I will make a new rear sight and think I can eliminate the vertical stringing.  The sky was clouded and made it hard to see the aiming bar.  I'll make it thicker.

[smylee grouch]

Herb,now that you have your crown worked over you might try using some thicker patchs and the 55+ gr. of 3f swiss and that 395 ball. I have a couple of GM 40s that I use 400 balls with 20/1000 patchs and they dont distort the ball when I load and shoot real good.  Might be worth a try.  Smylee

[Daryl]

My .40 has a .398" bore, with wide lands, narrow grooves. My .395" mold casts .398" X .397" - when my data says .395" - THAT's the ball. 

I also have  DC mould that has only one good cavity casting .400" X .400".  At one time, I thought perhaps that ball, bring .002" larger than the bore and using the .019" stretchy twill that's 100% cotton, shot better.

Since I'm running out of that material, I've tested every swatch of material I have with the .400" balls and they load and shoot just fine - including the .0225", 10oz. denim.  With the .398"X.397" balls, I've also used the .023" red/white/light blue striped ticking that has a dark blue background.  They seem to shoot very well with it as well.

My .40 calibre target's centre bull has a 5 shot group made with 55gr. 3f GOEX and using WinterWWFluid and oil. I've found this stuff to shoot pretty much identically with spit. 

I've also found that 55gr. 2F GOEX shoots just about identically in the .40 and that decent accuracy also seems to show on your 55gr. 2f target, Herb.  I'd re-shoot that load with a more distinct bull - and try a thicker patching as well.  I'm not sure why you are having difficulty loading the thicker combinations- perhaps you're runnning dryer patches than we use?

[Herb]

Thanks for the comments.  The reason I coned the muzzle was that a patched ball sat on the crown and would fall off if I wasn't careful.  I coned it enough that the ball would stay put while I reached for the short starter.  I tried some old pillow ticking I have, mikes about .0215, but could not hand start a .395 ball.  Would actually have had to use a hammer to start it, and none along and no rock handy, either.  I cut my patches about 1 inch square with a rotary cutter and like to pre-wet them with my lube, squeeze the bunch together, 10 or 15 of them, and put them in a cap can for use as I need them.  But they curled too much and unraveled.  Round patches would work better, and I have gasket punches to cut them.  So the square ones I used work better if I wet them as I use them.  I use a mixture of Murphy Oil Soap, 91% alcohol and hydrogen peroxide in a nasal spray or eye drop bottle, squeezing out enough to wet the patch.  Have used this mixture, less the hydrogen peroxide, for years, adding the latter for cleaning.  But then the function of the "lube" is actually to clean the bore, so I use it.

[Daryl]

With less than really tight loads, Murphy's Oil Soap has shown to produce a brownish, tar-like residue in the grooves - according to some of our members here. Taylor still uses Murphys without problems - but he's using tighter loads than those with problems- without using a hammer or mallet.

A starter with some sort of knob (enlarged end) on it makes seating the ball easier with just a smack of the palm - no hammer, mallet or rock is needed. 

[Herb]

I've used some concoction of Murphy Oil Soap for a few years and never had any trouble with it.  Even tried it full strength for a few shots, but decided thinned was better.  I tried to seat a .395 grain ball with a wet .215 old pillow ticking patch in my shop last night, no powder, expecting to easily pull the ball after it seated.  Had to hammer it into the bore, then tried to pull it, only about 4" in.  Took me half an hour to get the durned thing out.  Enough of that!

I made a new sight, using a .100 hole, planning to cut the top of the hole off.  Checked it today, shooting at the bottom right target.  I got that hole right where I wanted it.  It covers about 22" at 50 yards, covering four aiming bars.   I think I'll drill it out larger so I can see more.  Used 55 grains of Goex 2F with five different patchings, results below.  Had a damp patch on the seating jag so wiped the bore after each shot, and cleaned the bore after each target.

Composite group of 26 shots.  The GI is 100 % cotton sateen from a fatigue jacket.

First shot from a clean bore is usually a lot faster and lower, based on all targets shot in this series, thus this wild group.

[Daryl]

That bottom one looks a lot better.  I see the balls measure .393", yet with a .020" patch, are too tight? The blls must be harder than pure lead - must be.  I showed Taylor last time I had my .40 out, that the crown I have will allow seating without using a starter, just pushing with one hand on a choked up rod. No smack with my palm and definitely no hammering, tapping, or pounding. Too they pull very easily.

Something is very different between the balls and patches you are using, compared to what we're used to applying.  No one here needs to pound anything even with their thicker patching and balls that are only .005" undersize to the bore, or larger.  You can see that by the videos we've made.  Maybe the bore is not smooth? 

Just about everyone here uses a .020" or thicker patching and that blue/red/white mattress ticking that I sent to California and Georgia is what 5 of us use now.  It shoots wonderfully in every rifle I have as well as the smoothbore.  It's .023" or thicker depending on the tool used to measure it, Herb.  I think Crispy uses about a .015" or .018" in his smoothbore .54 due to the .526" ball - maybe it's .530"? When he uses that in his GM .50, he has mild fouling problems after about 20 shots. He's still able to load without wiping, but it's getting crunchy. A slightly thicker patch would aleviate that, but he's happy, I guess.

The good news is it's coming together and the aperture (better sigthing) seemed to help a lot.

[Herb]

I think these are balls that a friend and I cast, him furnishing the lead.  I thought it was pure lead, but I cannot seat these balls with a thick patch.  The barrel is a Rice, and I expect it to be smooth, though I have not slugged it.  Think I'll do that now.  Roundball, I have trouble seeing pink, orange and red.  So I never use these colors in targets.  I think these big groups so far are the loads.  If I knew how to make them all shoot into one hole, that is what I'd use.  That last load of 55 grains of Goex 2F and the ".015" linen worked great.  I called it .014 before, but it seems to measure .015 when I cut it last.  I cut that new sight down and will use it next, reshooting the 70 grains of Swiss 3F that gave 2169 fps on 1-27-12 and then on 1-30-12, 64.5 grains gave 2239 fps, same powder, patch and ball both days.  No mistakes in the loads.  This rifle's first shot from a clean bore is frequently a lot higher in velocity.  If I delete the first velocity for both charges, 70 grains gave 2138 fps, spread of 53 fps, and 64.5 grains gave 2225 fps with a spread of 58.

[smylee grouch]

Herb, I found my Lee 400 mold and will send off some 400RB in mail tomorrow. These are pure lead so you can give them a try and see how it loads and shoots.    Smylee

[Herb]

Thanks, Smylee.

[Herb]

Today I tested my new rear sight, which has a .010 hole instead of a notch, I hold the front sight centered in the hole (though the top of the hole is cut off).

This sight works very well for me, best I have come up with.

The day was 35 degrees and windy, quite cold.  I shot the .400 balls that Smylee sent me, using 55 grains of Goex 2F and .020 Ox Yoke and .012 linen.  Target 1 was fired with no wiping between shots, but bore cleaned after each group.  Target 2 was the same but with a damp cleaning patch on the seating jag, thus wiping the bore as I seated the ball.  Target 3 was with .012 linen, no wiping.  Target 4 was with a cleaning patch on the seating jag.

Here is a composite of the 20 shots.  The first shot is usually out of the group and higher velocity.  No shot was called out.  I'll center the rear sight and shoot some more next week, weather permitting.

[Daryl]

It's definitely coming together Herb. The pure lead balls seem to be making a difference. Now, it's merely searching for the best shooting load, once you settle on a patch that gives you clean shooting.

[Vomitus]

  Very nice groups with Goex 2f. Kinda blows the theory of "3f under 50 cal.",to bits.I shot 50 grs. of 2f Goex in my forty and she loved it.Now I shoot 2f in all my rifles and guns.
  2f is for rifles,3f is for pistols-Lynton MacKenzie...Don Getz quotes this one quite often.I like it too.

[Candle Snuffer]

I've been following this thread and will only add that many of the folks I know and shoot with, seem to swear by 2f over 3f for their serious target shooting.  I'll have to admit, I too have tested the 2f / 3f Goex for target shooting in calibers .40 through .54 and have found that it does seem to give me a better measure of accuracy.

[Herb]

Because my rifle was grouping 2 inches left at 50 yards, I centered the sights.  Here is how I calculated how much to move one.  50 yards times 3 feet is 150 feet times 12 inches is 1800 inches, divided by the sight radius of 35 inches gives 51.4.  Two inch desired correction divided by 51.4 gave .039" to move one sight (either front or rear, or half of each).  I marked a reference line on the center of the rear sight base at the barrel and then another light mark on the barrel .039 inch to the right.  I tapped the rear sight to the line and the sights were set to center, see target below.  Today I tested some .400 Rush Creek balls and patching that Smylee Grouch sent me.  The balls were very uniform .403-.405 weighing 101 grains.  I cut one-inch round patches from .016 pillow ticking and .019 Teflon.  I used 70 grains of Swiss 2F.  On 1-27-12, Target 4, that load with .395 balls and .015 OxYoke averaged 2047 fps.  Today's averaged 2213 fps.  I intended next to shoot the same load with .400 balls for comparison but could not seat the ball, having no hammer along.

There is no loading data for Swiss powders, the manufacturer does not supply any.  You are on your own.  So I substitued volume for volume with Goex powder.  When I got home, I weighed 70-grain charges of Swiss powder and got a real surprise.  Five averaged 78.04 grains and had a spread of 1.7 grains.  Five 70-grain volume charges of Goex 2F aferaged 68.26 grains with a 1.0 grain spread.

So I carefully weighed 55 and 70 grain charges of Goex 3F, 2F, Swiss 3F, 2F and 1 1/2F powders.  This is a subject for a separate post, which I will do.  But when I go back to test more of Smylee's patches and ball, it will be with weighed charges,  55 grains of Goex 2F and my last Swiss 3F

My Durs Egg lock has a very strong mainspring, but this flint went between 75 and 100 hammer falls.  The White Lightning flash hole liner has not been opened up, and the hole is about .052.  I use a large paperclip (.045) to pick the vent before every shot, but still had 40 flashes-in-the-pan with a few over 200 shots.  Swiss 1 1/2 is hard to light, I have had four FIP in a row with it, till I make it go by tipping the 4F prime into the flash hole.

[Daryl]

Suggestion, ever since seeing Larry's timing proof showing faster ignition if banked against the vent, I generally do that every shot now. It works and ignition is very fast.  For years, the black powder writers have said not to do this & even to bank the powder away from the pan. The writers did not have the sophisticated timing devices Larry has and therefore that advice should not be followed. My own tests show banking against the vent to be good advice, as the barrel's charge is right there, visible through the vent.

Herb - I open the .052" White Lightening hole to 1/16". Time past, I used to open it to .070", but do not do that now.

[Herb]

The flashes in the pan would diminish or end if I opened the flash hole up, but I am saving that for another test to see if there is a velocity change.     I use a very small amount of 4F prime from a charger, perhaps only two or three grains from a quick jab and pay no attention to where it lays in the pan.  But to insure certain igniton, I tip the prime into the hole.  My hunting rifles all have .070 vents and thus almost no flashes in the pan. 

[Don Getz]

Back in the time when I was still in the barrel business and attending the shoots at Friendship, I made a rather heavy
barrel in 40 cal., 1/66" twist for Dick Fisher, a cross stick shooter.   If I can remember correctly, he was shooting a .400
ball with 80 grains of FFF, don't know about the patching.   He brought a target over to my booth to show me.   It was
a target with six bulls, top left for practice and five for score.   He posted the target and shot one shot at each bull, just
for practice.  Every shot was a ten, and he posted the same target the next day and shot one shot at each bull again,
enlarging the previous days holes.............most impressive.......Don

[Daryl]

Absolutely - consistancy, though art a jewel.