Mangled Patch Gallery: What to Do?

[Mattole]

Just came back from shooting my new Lyman Plains pistol. I have not been able to achieve any consistent accuracy at 25 yds yet, using any powder load, ranging from 20 to 40 grains of Pyrodex P. Here are the vital stats:

Caliber: .54
Ball: .535
Patch: Denim, thickness .011 (compressed reading)
Patch Lube: 1:7 Ballistol:Water, dried
Overpowder wad: wasp nesting, then for the last six shots I tried folded patch material.

The patch/ball combo needed a short starter to get past the muzzle but would load without much difficulty after that. No pounding the ball into a misshapen lump was involved, just what I could call a good tight fit.

Here are patches from the last six shots:



It didn't seem to make a difference what the load or the overpowder material was in determining what the patch ended up looking like. Sometimes it would be relatively intact but still cut in one corner, at other times the center would be completely blown out.

From other posts I have read it seems like sharp rifling and/or a sharp crown are to blame. What do you think, and what would you suggest as a remedy? Many thanks.

[Dogshirt]

I have heard/read many times that Lyman has some pretty sharp machining in their barrels.
I have also read any number of fixes for this, everything from Scotchbrite or 4/0 steel wool,
to "just shoot a couple hundred rounds and it'll smooth out". I don't have this problem with either
my GPR or GPP, nor do I advocate anything I have listed. This only what have gathered from
other sources. Perhaps someone else will chime in.

[Daryl]

Those patches show typical blowby burning.  I've found that with the smaller powder charges of a pistol and the subsequent lower pressure, a ball .010" under bore size with a thicker patch works perfect.  Patches are completely reusable with the addition of more lube.

Thus, I use a .010" "under" ball and a .020" to .022" denim patch - measured compressed heavily with calipers. It takes a whick with the starter knob to put it flush, then it goes down easily, shot after shot, no wiping.

This is the combination I use in my .54 flinter with the rifle barrel of 60" twist. To get decent accuracy I have to use 55gr. 3F. It then kicks just like my M29, but shoots into 2 1/2" at 50 yards, hands resting on a bag. The patches are compeltely reusable, no burns, no brown scorch marks, no burns, no cuts, no wadding of any sort.

The really brown cloth shows a lot of gas blowby (brown streaks and swirls) due to those thin patches. This problem is compounded by a too-sharp muzzle crown, evidences by the land cuts. Appears even the wads could not prevent the blowby.

[Dogshirt]

I use .015 patches with a .535 ball, might be I could go with a heavier patch, but I've
not had your issue with that set up.

[Mattole]

Seems like there are a confusing variety of opinions regarding what to use to take care of a too-sharp muzzle crown. Daryl and others, what do you suggest?

[Roger B]

Go to a heavier patch as suggested.  If that doesn't work, buy a Scotchbrite pad (made to replace 4-0 steel wool) and wrap it around a rod.  Give the bore a good scrubbing with two or three pieces of Scotchbrite and see what happens.  You won't hurt it with the scotchbrite and any sharp places will have smoothed right out.
Roger B.

[bob in the woods]

How old id the patch mat'l ? 

[Gene Carrell]

As to  smoothing the muzzle, I just use 320 grit cloth  pressed with a thumb. Rotate the bbl both directions  until the  ends  of the rifling is rounded and the sharp ends are gone. It  does not  usually take all that  much.    Incidently, I have  never  had any luck with patching material less than  0.018" as measured using a micrometer. I now use  10oz  deniem at about 0.022" almost exclusively.

[William Worth]

How does the bore look?

I would give it repeated workouts with a polish like "Flitz", or "Simichrome" or whatever else as part of the cleaning routine until it smooths out.

Given the limited cutting of a polishing paste, I can't think there would be any real danger of harming to bore to do so.

[Daryl]

My patching findings are same as Gene.  I like 10oz denim. Trouble with many measurements, it depends a lot on the tool used - as noted many times here, I've several sets of calipers, standard vernier and 2 with dials- that's three different measurements on the same material.

Taylor's mic and my mic are also out a thousandth, with both measurements being different from what the calipers give.

I-too use emery or wet/dry paper in 320 grit for the machine cut crown.  If the crown is sharp, not been machine cut, I use one of the tapered grinding stones on an electric drill, with emery around the stone for the cutting. This cuts a chamfer quite quickly, then finish with my thumb, rotating the barrel periodically, which makes for a perfect crown.  A lathe is the easiest, bit of emery or paper and your finger after the quick machine cut and in 15 to 25 seconds, it's done. I do wish barrel makers would do this - it's easy and doesn't seem to hurt accuracy and allows easy loading of very tight combinations.
If the patches get holed and burnt - there are 3 possible causes as I see it:

1/. barrel with sharp flash-edged corners on the lands - Scotchbright is fastest, 0000 will also work well, Flitz or JB are less abrasive & take longer to remedy.
2/. too sharp a crown cutting the patch
3/. too thin a patch

#'s 2/. and 3/. are most common with the majority of shooters and barrels.

Longitudinal strokes (one end to the other) with mild abrasives as noted above, will not hurt the bore. Don't stop 1/2 way and go back - make equal, long strokes.

[Mattole]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

Bob in the woods, the denim patch material I am using is very new. It is the same patching and lube combination (patch saturated with 1:7 Ballistol:water solution and allowed to dry) that I use in my .54 GPR rifle with great accuracy and no patch destruction.

The uncompressed measurement of the patch material (using my digital caliper) is .022+, so I don't think the thinness of the patch is an issue.

It seems that most people who shoot this pistol in .54 opt for a .530 ball and a thicker patch, rather than the .535 ball that I have been using. I figured if the .535 ball worked so well in my rifle that it could be good in my pistol.

First I'll try smoothing out the too-sharp edges of the rifling and the crown and see how that goes. I have seen 000 steel wool suggested as well as the Scotch-Brite. Is there any harm in using the steel wool?

Thanks again gentlemen!

[bgf]

Just a suggestion, but try the .530 ball before doing anything else.  The twist rate is fast (1:30?) and putting a lot more stress on the patch than your rifle (1:60 or so?).  The muzzle may not even cut the patch with a smaller ball, but you can always smooth it out later if you are still having problems.  One thing at a time ! 

[Roger Fisher]

Thanks for the suggestions, everyone.

Bob in the woods, the denim patch material I am using is very new. It is the same patching and lube combination (patch saturated with 1:7 Ballistol:water solution and allowed to dry) that I use in my .54 GPR rifle with great accuracy and no patch destruction.

The uncompressed measurement of the patch material (using my digital caliper) is .022+, so I don't think the thinness of the patch is an issue.

It seems that most people who shoot this pistol in .54 opt for a .530 ball and a thicker patch, rather than the .535 ball that I have been using. I figured if the .535 ball worked so well in my rifle that it could be good in my pistol.

First I'll try smoothing out the too-sharp edges of the rifling and the crown and see how that goes. I have seen 000 steel wool suggested as well as the Scotch-Brite. Is there any harm in using the steel wool? No!


Thanks again gentlemen!

You mentioned dry patching (dry?)  Give a wet patch a 'shot' so to speak!

[Daryl]

My thoughts exactly, Roger - I've heard of this sharp rifling deal, but I've never seen it. I usually heat it from people using thin patches and in this case, dry as well as thin.

.022" compressed is a normal patch.  .011" is not, imho.  I've never considered using a dry patch so no wonder those thin patches are incinerating.

[Mattole]

But why would the same ball and patch combination in my rifle be fine, without a trace of burning and tearing, even with heavy loads? That is what is confusing to me. Is it the pressure difference between using 2f in the rifle and Pyrodex P in the pistol? Also I don't think this patch is particularly thin for the pistol, as many people with the Lyman Plains pistol seem to use a .530 ball and pillow ticking and the denim material in the patch I am using  is thicker than pillow ticking.

The 'dry' patch I am using is based on Dutch Schoultz's accuracy system and it works in a stellar fashion in my rifle. However I'll give a 'wet patch a try and see what that does..

[bob in the woods]

Apples to apples, why not try FFg in the pistol and see what happens to the patch.  It wouldn't surprise me if Pyrodex burns hotter than black powder?  I asked about the age of the patches because Ihave seen some prelubed patches lose strength with time.

[Daryl]

Pyrodex Pistol Powder?  I feel that stuff might be useful for scouring toilet bowls - maybe - and that's it. We've been down the perchlorate road enough.

.011" denim is thicker than 'pillow' ticking? Maybe - I don't use anything called pillow ticking, but I use material that is called 'ticking'.

I have "ticking" (red/white/blue stripes) that measures .025" compressed and other ticking (black and white) that measures only .021" compressed.  You probably couldn't make it measure .011" even in if you squeezed in a bench vice.

  The only denim I've seen that runs .011/.012" compressed is called 6 ounce.  8 ounce denim runs about .015" to .016" compressed - that's too thin, too.  Many of us use 10 ounce & one of my rifles gets 12 ounce which measures .030" compressed between the jaws of calipers,  - get some real 10oz. denim and your problems will be over - but - maybe not unless you wet the patches & possibly smooth the crown.   I'd forget about the Dutch Shultz system for burning patches.  It's results look poor to me.

Look at your patches. The tell the story & this thread contains the remedy.    

[smylee grouch]

Maybe someone is confusing 11 oz. with .011 and we are all confused.

[Dphariss]

Just came back from shooting my new Lyman Plains pistol. I have not been able to achieve any consistent accuracy at 25 yds yet, using any powder load, ranging from 20 to 40 grains of Pyrodex P. Here are the vital stats:

Caliber: .54
Ball: .535
Patch: Denim, thickness .011 (compressed reading)
Patch Lube: 1:7 Ballistol:Water, dried
Overpowder wad: wasp nesting, then for the last six shots I tried folded patch material.

The patch/ball combo needed a short starter to get past the muzzle but would load without much difficulty after that. No pounding the ball into a misshapen lump was involved, just what I could call a good tight fit.

Here are patches from the last six shots:



It didn't seem to make a difference what the load or the overpowder material was in determining what the patch ended up looking like. Sometimes it would be relatively intact but still cut in one corner, at other times the center would be completely blown out.

From other posts I have read it seems like sharp rifling and/or a sharp crown are to blame. What do you think, and what would you suggest as a remedy? Many thanks.

Try putting a patch over the powder as a gasket. This fixed the problem in one of my 50 calibers.
The dry patch is far harder on patch material than slicker lubes are.
Or switch of a slippery lube.
Patch is too thin too I use stuff that is .015-.018 compressed.
Blackpowder will help a lot too.
Dan

[Daryl]

Maybe someone is confusing 11 oz. with .011 and we are all confused.

As far as I know, the ounce weights are even numbers only. There is no 11 ounce locally, only 6,8,10 and 12 being the thickest used for heavy duty work coveralls and heavier denim coats.  

The way those patches are being toasted & streaked with brown scorch marks, the material is too thin, period.

Dan - he was using folded patch material between the powder and patched ball on these last 6 shots and wasp nest prior to that.

[docone]

One of the things I do, is to use a patch as a gasket.
When I use R.E.A.L.s I also use the gasket.
Seemed to work a little better for me.

[alsask]

Apples to apples, why not try FFg in the pistol and see what happens to the patch.  It wouldn't surprise me if Pyrodex burns hotter than black powder?  I asked about the age of the patches because Ihave seen some prelubed patches lose strength with time.

Bob,

I recently found out about pre-lubed patches going rotten over time.  I had two containers of patches one lubed with Olive oil and the other Crisco.  They were only about 7 months old and the denim had gone rotten in both.

[Daryl]

I use patches that seal the powder gases behind them.

The use of wads has degraded accuracy in both .40 and .45 cal rifles in tests. Only my .69, so far, shows an indifference to the use of wads.

 I used wads in it to keep wet patches from spoiling part of the powder charge only, never to try to cover up the choice of a too-thin patch.

That's the rifle that gets the 12 ounce, .030" thick when compressed denim patch. I use that patching with both a .684" ball as well as with the .677" ball and the recovered patches are re-usable over and over - all they need is fresh lube.

I do not understand why the use of a substancial patch iseems difficult to comprehend or understand. 

[Mattole]

Daryl I comprehend the use of a 'substantial' patch very well - and I get very clearly that you have strong feelings about a thicker patch being the solution to my problem. However everyone I have heard of who shoots the Lyman Plains pistol uses nothing thicker than .015 ticking with a .530 ball, and as I said the denim I have been using is thicker than that. I'm sure my compressed reading is incorrect and it is time to get a non-digital caliper for more accurate readings. As for Dutch's system burning patches, it has never happened before in my shooting and even with what I am encountering with my pistol I would say that the patches I recovered have been discolored, not incinerated.

At any rate, thanks for the suggestions, everyone. I will work on the crown and try wet-lube patches of varying thicknesses, starting with ticking and working up to 10 oz denim to see what happens. I'm afraid 3F black powder will have to wait as there is none within a several hour drive of where I live. Perhaps I'll try some of the 2F Goex Express and see what that does.

Good day to all.

[Dphariss]

Dan - he was using folded patch material between the powder and patched ball on these last 6 shots and wasp nest prior to that.

Yeah I didn't read careful enough. I was just looking at the pictures 

If an over powder patch or wad is used how are the patched getting so toasty? When I saw the burns I did not expect an over powder patch/wad. In my experience the patch on the ball is usually clean of burns if its protected.
The burned areas indicate contact with the powder.
The over powder patches, in my experience often have a hole punched in the middle like the 2 on the left.

The second patch seems the decelerate at the muzzle and the escaping gases hole it (?) The patch on the ball seems to be carried along by the "draft" behind the ball.
I would still increase the patch thickness.

Dan