Honest opinions wanted on repair.

[wvmtnman]

    5 years go or so I built an Ohio style percussion rifle.  Barrel was a Green Mountain, 13/16, .36 caliber and 42 inches long.  I hunted with it while it was in the white for a couple seasons.  When I went to finish it up a couple year ago, I noticed that the drum was not fitting tight.  I used a 5/16 thread diameter 1/2 inch drum.   
    I took it to a muzzleloader gunsmith who does extensive restoration work.  He suggested that I use a low temp braze, to braze the drum in place so that continued use would not lead to a gas leak.  I also contacted someone experienced in barrel making and he also gave me the thumbs up on this repair. 
    I had the gunsmith do the repair.  I have shot the rifle since and have not had any problems.  However, in this sue happy world I was wondering if anyone else has experience in this area. 
   I helped do the brazing.  Heat was brought up very slowly and cooled very slowly. 
   If I were going to keep this rifle I would continue to shoot it as is.  I know how to use it properly plus I just can’t see how heating a barrel a little could destroy the metal properties with a barrel wall this thick, when considering what it takes to forge one.  Since I am going to sell it, I would like some other opinions.  Anyone else out there ever do this?
                                                                               Brian
 

[bob in the woods]

You asked for an opinion, so I'll offer mine. The brazing is a "filler" as I see it. The thread engagement is where the strength is . Barrels were welded. Not brazed as  far as I know. I'd not be happy with it as is, and would redo the barrel drum , shortening the barrel if I had to. Loose drums give me the willies. Preferably,I'd change it to flint .   

[MarkEngraver]

I could not and would not sell a gun in said condition !
This brazing bothers the heck out of me.
Why was it loose ? I would have ascertained the reason why it was not fitting correctly.
Could you have just replaced the drum with a new one ,rather than "brazing" the old one?

If a new drum can not be fitted properly, then I also would convert it to flint.

Mark
 

[Lucky R A]

     I am totally surprised that you got that type of advice from "know ledgable people."   If the problem was an ill fitting drum the problem was with the threads on the drum or those in the barrel.  This is where the repair should have been made.  There were several avenues to make that repair, and brazing is not one of them.  A new drum, a larger thread on a new drum, or cut it off and fit a patent breech.

[wvmtnman]

I probably did not explain it very well.  I did this fix to avoid any possible gas leakes.
   The braze was used to fill in the loose fit in the threaded area. The drum was not so loose that you could move it with your fingers, but when I finished the barrel I was polishing the drum and it moved a little. I could have continued to use the rifle like it was but decided to go a different route.  I was afraid that that the fit would lead to a gas leak.
 The reason I did not go with a larger diameter drum was due to caliber size.  A 3/8 thread would have been larger than bore size.  Another drum whould not have fixed it either, the problem was in the barrel
   The breech plug was removed, braze was put on the threaded part of the drum, then screwed into place.
   If I decide to sell, I may just put in another barrel.  Since I am using it, with only 30 fffg, I will continue as is.
However, what are the possible dangers with this fix?  It seems to me that this would provide a better seal against any possible gas leakage. 
    Does heating the metal destroy it?  I know NOTHING about the properties of metal.
                                                            Thanks, Brian

[rich pierce]

Right now I would not consider it a shooter.  The drum system is not as good as a patent breech but can be safe when everything is right and the drum is well seated and well supported by the lock.  The way to repair it is to go to the next larger thread size drum or have a drum custom turned with a larger thread.  Back in the 70's I was shooting with a friend when his drum blew out.  Nobody was standing on his right.  I'd have hated to have caught that thing upside my head.  It was a skinny barreled import.  Man the blue on the barrel was beautiful but I'd have preferred better machining.

[Hudnut]

Leaky threads aren't necessarily structurally unsound threads.
But this isn't a good idea if the gun is being sold.
Probably the best repair would be to set the barrel back, and rebreech it, with all that entails for the rest of the rifle.
Or, rebarrelling would certainly be an option.

[Steve-In]

To fix it right you will have to un-braze it.  By loose do you mean the drum will rotate easy?  This happens when drums are constantly taken out.  If that is the case just replace the drum if the barrel threads are good.  If the barrel threads are worn have an oversize drum made up.  The problem I see with a patent breech is getting the lock to work with it.

[Captchee]

 why would getting a lock to work fit a patent breech be a problem ?
 lets not forget that it was originaly designed for flintlock use .

 when it comes the brazing . there are places it can be used and places it shoudl not be used .
IMO it should not be used in areas that are subject to pressure . sounds to me like his gunsmith just took the easy way out  instead of making a proper part  to fix the problem .

 im speculating here  but it sounds like what happened was he set his drum bolster , then draw filed the barrel to the point that the bolster  then turned passed the proper alignment .
 if thats the case then a new blank bolster is all thats needed .

 

[Steve-In]

why would getting a lock to work wit a patent breech be a problem ?
 lets not forget that it was originaly designed for flintlock use .

The lock is already inlet.  A different breech would have to fit it where the notch in the plate is already.

[Dphariss]

We all have learned things the hard way in one way or another. So don't feel like the Lone Ranger in this.

From the standpoint of safety the  drum and nipple is hands down the worst way to make a ML. Making the drum from modern cold rolled steel makes it worse. But many original rifles were made this way since it was easy or converted to percussion in this manner for the same reason. There are many modern D&N guns out there and people like them this does not mean its a good idea. This whole problem would have been avoided if a patent breech had been used.

Brazing. You received bad advice. The ML world has a large number of quacks who do gun work, unfortunately you seem to have met 2 in a row.
High temperatures and finished gun barrels are a bad combination and to get brass to flow the temp had to be about 1700-1750 or perhaps more.
For example how bad did you scale the bore and the interior of the drum from the heat?
I recommend scrapping the barrel and putting on one with a patent breech. Pick a patent breech that will fill the notch in the lockplate or have the plate welded by someone with a gas shielded wire welder then recut to fit the breech.
The unheated portions of the barrel are still usable so shortening from the breech and using it in this manner is a viable option, or for a shorter rifle or pistol barrels in the future.
You cannot in good conscience sell it as is to anyone as a shooter with a brazed breech.


Dan

[Gaeckle]

Many old originals built during the caplock era put a shoulder inside of the barrel where the drum was inserted.......the drum was installed as you would install a breechplug. I have some old barrels that used this technique. Then again, I also have many old breechplugs with two to four very coarse threads that taper and are short that show a drum location......I also have an old original that inserts the drum through the barrel wall and into the plug thus locking both the drum and the plug.

I also notice that the drums made today have a very slight radius where the threads meet the body of the drum and I often countersink (ever so slightly) the barrel to help allow the drum to snug up against the barrel.

[kutter]

Just about any cartridge firing SxS shotgun or rifle including those smokeless prooved with  steel bbls are brazed together at the breech. (A couple of exceptions)

We've come to trust those who actually manufacture such things that way and it's gone pretty well.

If those same bbls were to be 'fixed' by someone with an acetylene outfit to perhaps reattach a loose under-lug, all bets are off. The piece would/should be scrapped.
We generally view primary gun parts that have been in a fire the same way.

Not knowing the working propertys of the steel in the bbl, the temp it was brought to in brazing, etc., I'd just err on the side of caution.
Ditch at least the breech end and shorten it.
I'd rebbl it personally

Or sell it as parts if you don't want to mess with it. But I certainly wouldn't use or sell it with that bbl on it w/the brazed area still attached.

Just my .02

[Captchee]

Just about any cartridge firing SxS shotgun or rifle including those smokeless prooved with  steel bbls are brazed together at the breech. (A couple of exceptions)

  in SOME cases yes. a whole lot of Liege barrels were brazed . a whole lot more makers today use high temp solders  so  we
then we have to consider what we are calling brazing .
m a subject thats been hashed over  in another thread .
HOWEVER it should be noted that this  joining is done by a diffrent process  then what was probably done in this case

[wvmtnman]

Thanks for all the replies.  I sort of figured that I would get this response here and trust what I take away.  I will not sell the rifle as is.  As for the problem, I am pretty sure that it occured during the drilling/tapping process.  I drill and tap free handed.  I am sure there was wobble.  This is the first time I have had any problems and want to make sure that it does not happen again.  
   To be honest, I am going to continue shooting the rifle as is.  I always wear safety glass plus I am aware of the problem.  I will watch it and not shoot it while near others.  Plus, I still trust the advice I got.  But,  "I" am the one who got the advice, not someone else.  It is possible that the only reason they gave me the thumbs up on the repair is because they know what type of shooter I am.  I feel that it would be safe to use 25gr ffg.  Having said that, I do believe there would be problems with shooting more than 45 ffg.
   However, I am getting k98 fever, so may sell it within the next 4 or 5 months.  When I go to sell I I will most likely put another barrel on it then refinish the rifle.  As for the old barrel, I may saw off a couple inches or just engrave it "NOT SAFE TO SHOOT" and include it with the rifle.  
   On a side note, I have decided to purchase some type of machine to properly drill holes in the very near future.
                                                           Thanks again, Brian
Here is a picture of rifle.

[kutter]

Just about any cartridge firing SxS shotgun or rifle including those smokeless prooved with  steel bbls are brazed together at the breech. (A couple of exceptions)

  in SOME cases yes. a whole lot of Liege barrels were brazed . a whole lot more makers today use high temp solders  so  we
then we have to consider what we are calling brazing .
m a subject thats been hashed over  in another thread .
HOWEVER it should be noted that this  joining is done by a diffrent process  then what was probably done in this case

I'm refering to the joining at the breech sections w/ their locking lugs only,,, not the bbl rib attachments themselves.
The bbls and their underlugs are brazed together (copper spelter) on just about all the assemblys. Fox, Parker, LCS, Ithaca, H&H, etc.
Some Euro makers silver soldered the ribs on also,,Belgian and some Spanish especially. Lower temps from brazing.

You are correct,,the brazing of the breech sections on doubles was commonly done in a furnace.
Modern induction equiptment/facilities makes for easier work of all this.
Deffinetly not a job for a torch mechanic.

[docone]

That is a nice looking rifle. The lock is a little tipped down, but it still looks better than what I have made in the past.
I am wondering, since the drum is forward on the threads, if it would not be possible to mildly countersink the barrel/breechplug threads, then turn the drum in tighter. This would align the nipple and the countersink would eliminate the wobble. Since you would not be enlarging the chamber, I would then ball burr the drum threads in the breechplug. That should make a tight fit.
You have a lot of wall there, so the threads should be ok. You just need to make a torque shoulder. The counter sink should take care of that.
You have done some good work there. It looks good.

[Joe Stein]

Brian, why not cut off the breech and install one of the patent breech plugs with integral bolster/drum from Track of the Wolf? 

I'm talking about one of these:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=143&styleId=519&partNum=PLUG-OH-13-9
or:
http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=14&subId=143&styleId=519&partNum=PLUG-OH-13-5

[Dphariss]

Just about any cartridge firing SxS shotgun or rifle including those smokeless prooved with  steel bbls are brazed together at the breech. (A couple of exceptions)

Gun factories usually know what they are doing, the temps involved and the effect on the material.

I once had a Martini action 22 with a "Parker rifled" liner "brazed" in by the color of the joint. But I seriously doubt it was done at 1700-1800 degrees.

Dan

[keweenaw]

This whole business gets confused when we have people replying who consider any barrel to require safety margins appropriate to modern centerfire standards, or any guns with a drum unsafe, despite the countless numbers that were/are done that way.   First, it's highly unlikely the the drum was literally brazed in.  Many gunsmiths still use that term for work done with high temp silver solder which is melting at about 1200, well below copper brazing temperatures.  That temperature is not going to hurt a muzzleloader barrel which wasn't heat treated anyway.  As for bore scaling, the back two inches only get powder anyway so no big deal even if it was scaled which is unlikely.  Going back to the centerfire example, Winchester used to braze, not silver solder,  an accessory recoil lug on the bottom of the barrel of their 458 win mag. African rifles.  They apparently didn't consider that unsafe or damaging to the barrels.  And the business of almost all shotgun barrels being joined at the breech by brazing  is well covered.  Virtually any modern O/U shotgun designed for steel shot has the ribs silver soldered on as the flexing of the tubes with steel shot knocked soft soldered ribs loose.

The correct fix for your problem would have been to make a new drum with slightly oversize threads that would be tight in the barrel.  Easy to do either cutting the threads on the new drum in the lathe or by using an adjustable die.

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

Good to hear from you Tom.  Here's another one to consider.  I have a mid grade Belgian gun originally made around 1740 that was converted to percussion.  The process used, was apparently to braze on a block which acts as a bolster.  All of the conversion work is very profesional in appearance.  How common this approach was used in European work, I'm not certain.  How durable this would be, I'm not certain of as well.  One thing to consider is the barrel has a very large breech which yields a lot of surface area for the the braze joint. 

Jim

[kutter]

Just about any cartridge firing SxS shotgun or rifle including those smokeless prooved with  steel bbls are brazed together at the breech. (A couple of exceptions)

Gun factories usually know what they are doing, the temps involved and the effect on the material.

I once had a Martini action 22 with a "Parker rifled" liner "brazed" in by the color of the joint. But I seriously doubt it was done at 1700-1800 degrees.

Dan

Why not read my original post in it's entirety before finding fault with it.
You'll find we agree.
 

[smylee grouch]

Your gun could be fixed quite easy if you cut barrel off in front of drum, have a quality gunsmith make a nock style breech with tang the same size and length as original barrel assemby reinstal and drill a new drum or convert to flint. I know several on this forum and elsewhere that could do the job. I have had this done before but because of different reasons. Thats too nice a gun not to get fixed up proper.    Smylee

[FL-Flintlock]

From the standpoint of safety the  drum and nipple is hands down the worst way to make a ML. Making the drum from modern cold rolled steel makes it worse.

Brazing. You received bad advice. The ML world has a large number of quacks who do gun work, unfortunately you seem to have met 2 in a row.
High temperatures and finished gun barrels are a bad combination and to get brass to flow the temp had to be about 1700-1750 or perhaps more.
Dan

Oh c'mon Dan, give it a rest already because you can't even make up your own mind ... but it's not like you don't make a habit of proclaiming ignorance and making libelous statements.

You just can't resist making the "cold rolled" comment about production-made drums yet earlier this month you're making breechplugs from cold rolled
RE: Reply #13
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19777.0

But in Sept. of 2011 (RE: reply #10) you proclaim that cold rolled steel seldom stretched, if it fails, it breaks - by your own proclamation does that not create a very dangerous situation for your cold rolled breechplugs?
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=18375.0

And ... reply #10 of this thread you proclaim, "Cold rolled anything is not suitable for gun barrels. Cold rolled material is wonderful stuff for many applications. Gun barrels is just not one of them."
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=9657.0

And ... reply #21 of this thread you again make the statement, "Drums that will break off since they are made of cold rolled with low charpy test numbers." but provide no evidence to support your libelous claim.
http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19856.15

Interestingly enough though, despite your constant outbursts about thread clearance and cold rolled steel, in the following threads you instruct people to use bolts from the hardware store that, at best, have only a 50% thread engagement, less if the Zn plating is removed ... and they're all COLD ROLLED ... and you go on to tell them to "braze" the tang onto the bolt with undersize cold rolled threads.
RE: Reply #2 http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=14458.0
RE: Reply #17 http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=13684.15
Coming full-circle to contradict yourself, back to reply #21 of this thread http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=19856.15 you claim hardware store bolt threads are unworthy ... Then you go on to claim, "Make the breech plug with a expandable die so it has minimal clearance in the threaded hole. You cannot buy one that is this tight. So the average person who tries to do the tap the bore thing CANNOT DO IT RIGHT BECAUSE THE THREAD TOLERANCE IS WRONG."  So please Dan, for the sake of sanity, please explain how you can make so many proclamations that are the total polar opposites of each other?

Since we're talking threads, would you please explain why you constantly insist on making a perfectly square inside cut on the mating shoulders in gun barrels when engineers go through great trouble to avoid having any squared point, especially cuts, on pressure vessels and anything else that is subjected to shock or cyclic stress loading?

I don't agree with what was done concerning this thread topic but if you'd have read what the OP wrote, in particular "low temp braze", a simple web search would let you know that means a work temp of >1400°F with common high-strength AG/Cu/Zn/Cd alloys (if done correctly) you could have spared everyone from your bore scale rant too.  But you did say you "high-temp silver brazed" a front sight on a .44mag nitro burner, did that barrel ever blow up?

Okay, go ahead and flame me for pointing out the inconsistencies in your own statements.  I look forward to seeing how you're going to try blaming me for what you said.   

[Gaeckle]

Well......

......getting back to the drum issue.........

It is apparent that the original poster has shot this gun and it hasn't blown up. From the pictures I think the rifle looks good.

Hopefully he'll continue building and may want to get a drill press for future projects.

Personally, I would not worry too much about it.