Lehigh Valley Lube

[Mad Monk]

Bill,    Could you explain in laymans terms the difference between petrol wax and petrol oil and grease? And how to know which is in what?

Thanks,
Bill

I'll use Pennsylvania crude oil as an example here.
When they first started extracting crude petroleum oil from wells in western PA they quickly began to have problems with transfer pipes block with this sort of soft slimy stuff.  Crude vaseline.  Also known as Cosmoline.  The base wax is one of a number of microcrystalline waxes and parrafin waxes with some liquid hydrocarbon.

If you take a straight lubricating oil, such as plain old motor oil, add some sulfur and then heat it for about 8 hours you get asphalt, road tar.  The lubricating oil polymerized with the heat and sulfur.  If you take straight lubricating oil in a metal pan and burn it with a propane torch you see this carbonization and asphalt film formation.

If you take this same lubricating oil and add a bunch of metallic soap, such as calcium or cadmium stearate, you get a wheel bearing grease.  That will also quickly form asphalt films in the bore of a BP gun firing black powder because of the sulfur in the black powder.

But the various petroleum waxes, microcrystalline and parrafin waxes will not polymerize and form asphalt films in the bore.  Over a long period of time to may see a very thin dark film in the bore but it won't act like asphalt in the bore.

If we go back to the 1970's in ml shooting we had Blue & grey patch and bullet lube.  Nothing more than repackaged wheel bearing grease.  T/C's Maxi-Lube was nothing more than the same grease they used to grease bearings, etc., or their gun making machinery.  Being petroleum greases made from petroleum lubricating oils they would form asphalt films in the bore.
Given the conditions in the bore when you fired the gun the heavest film thickness was back around where the ball, or bullet, had sat on the charge.  The film grew thinner as you went towards the muzzle.  With each round fired you added just a little bit more thickness to the film.  Then a point was reached where you could no longer seat the ball or bullet directly onto the powder charge.  Then came a time when you couldn't get either seated on the charge and could not pull the ball or bullet because it was stuck in place in the asphalt film.  Somebody would have to remove the breech plug and then use a steel rod and a hammer to drive it back out the muzzle.

Now if every now and then you simply scrubbed the bore out with a tar solvent it would not become a problem.  But water based cleaners simply had no effect on the asphalt film.  Someting like turpentine or mineral spirits would remove the asphalt film.

This thing about balls or bullets being frozen to the bore off the powder charge was suspected in a number of gun blow ups at that time.

Every time somebody would send Dixon Muzzleloading another sample of lube they wanted to sell to him I would run it through the propane torch test.  Put some in a metal jar lid.  Out in the yard of course.  Then use a propane torch to heat it and burn it.  No asphalt, no problem.  If it left a sticky black film in the jar lid then you knew it would do much the same thing in the bore.

One still sticks in my mind.  We were down at Woody's and somebody had given him a sample of patch/bulklet lube they were trying to foist on the shooters.  So I ignited a small amount in a jar lid.  When it began to burn it puffed up like a big puff ball mushroom in the woods.  No way were we going to use that stuff in our rifles.  That was a petroleum grease with a LOT of metallic soap in it.

[Mad Monk]

Dennis,

Look at the label on the back of the bottle.

Lestom Laboratories or Ox-Yoke???

Lestom Laboratories is on the back of the label.
Dennis

Dennis,

That has more of the "active agent" in it compared to the Ox-Joke production.  When the lube film drys in the bore you will pick it up on dry or damp patches run down the bore after it drys.

[Mad Monk]

Well I'll be !@*%&@!  I'm laughing with you MM!!  I don't use chap stick or buy bottled water.  But Lube 103 is an excellent patch lube, and I shall continue to use it in my bullet board and hunting rifles.  I trust it not to rust my bore.
Here's another funny thing...Young Country made a product called "Wood Love" and put it into a similar container yet different label to their 103.  It smells and acts exactly the same as the 103 - i suspect it IS the same.  That's marketing for ya'!!

I wouldn't bet the ranch on not rusting the bore.

Now as to "Wood Love".
Yep. Twas the same thing. Just a different color.
After he first came out with that I had a call from a kinda irate man down in Virginia.  He had built a fancy longrifle and finished it with that Wood Love".  Wanted to know how to get it out of the wood so that he could refinish the stock.  Said that with the Wood Love on the stock it was like trying to point and shoot a greased pig.

>That's marketing for ya'!!<

Its like this.  P.T. Barnum once stated that there is a sucker born every minute.  When it comes to ml supplies suppliers the moto is that every 5th one of them suckers is gonna shoot a muzzleloader at some point in time so go get em'.

Then they get on their kicks about "all-natural" and "non-petroleum".  "Food grade" ingredients and such.
So there we had patch lubes that were either repackaged lip balm or repackaged chest rubs.  Then we have powders based on vitamin C.
Now the ATF is bad enough.  Will we next see the FDA into the act with these products?  Let's not forget a fruit sugar based powder also.

Now with all of these "healthy" supplies.  If we don't get a deer there is no reason to come back out of the woods hungry or sick!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Alright then.  What is a good patch lube for a hunting rifle/gun, when the load shall remain for several days?

[Dphariss]

Alright then.  What is a good patch lube for a hunting rifle/gun, when the load shall remain for several days?

Neatsfoot or Sperm Whale or Bear oil all work fine for this, I wipe the center of the patch on the edge of my tin box to dry that area slightly. You can leave them loaded almost indefinitely where Live if loaded in this manner. I shoot mine every 3-5 days when hunting to make sure the load is good. But I have left them on the wall or in the closet for months, even with Goex years ago with no apparent effect on the load and no damage to the barrel.
A lube like SPG or a variation of the old Sharps Rifle Company lube wad formula (Rywell book) will also work well perhaps even better than oil.

Dan

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Thanks Dan.  I'll have to open up the lab and make something up.  Maybe blend a little Neatsfoot oil with some SPG for patches.

[Daryl]

Mink oil as sold by Track works well for a hunting lube as well.  I've left the .69 loaded for several months to 6 months with no ill effects. Perhaps I was lucky? or - Maybe it's OK.

 I take from all this talk- that Vaseline is on the wax-end of the petrolium spectrum and is OK. It (with beeswax) sure shoots well and keeps the fouling soft, allowing repeated shots without wiping.  I think I'll mix up a bach today using Olive Oil as the softener instead of Vaseline and see what happens. I understand this is a common lube now amongst BP ctg. silhouette shooters. The beeswax/Vaseline was a combination recommended by Paul Mathews as a great lube for BP ctgs. He was right.

 As a side note, I lubed up some REAL bullets for the .45 using the 60/40 beeswax/Vaseline mix and was rewarded with repeated shots without ANY fouling buildup - same thing with Lyman's Black powder Gold lube.

[Brian]

A most informative thread - thanks to all.  I wasn't able to contribute anything, but I learned a lot.

[Curtis]

These experiments don't throw any black powder in the mix, but they are interesting from a corrosion preventative standpoint....

http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion2.html
http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/corrosion/corrosion.html

[Seven]

Squirrelheart, those tests were one of the reasons that I went with LHV as a hunting lube last year.  And one of the reasons I was so reluctant to blame the ring of corrosion just on the lube.  I thought for sure I must have gotten some powder snow down the barrel or something else.  Now I'm not so sure.  My bore was spotless before loading.
-Chad

[T*O*F]

My bore was spotless before loading.

This seems to be a rather common statement, but flies in the face of actual common practice.  Please tell me how this is possible unless a person drops a bore light down his barrel and examines it each time before he loads.

Statistically speaking, I would venture to guess that 50%-75% of the readers of this board do not even own a bore light.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

It's been exactly five days since I set the test barrel outside with a 65 grain charge of FFg, a tight Lehigh Valley lubed denim patch and a .495 pure lead ball.  The weather has been quite high humidity for here with rain and freezing temps...26 F right now.
I pulled the plug and pushed out the charge.  The lube had dissolved a little BP which was stuck on the back of the patch.  The patch was no longer wet tho' it felt damp and slippery still.  The main charge was dry.  There was no rust in the bore.  The face of the plug which had been machined shows little rust pits.
In short, the LV did not rust the bore.
I will now repeat the experiment for another five days, but I'll bring the barrel into the house every night.  My suspicion is that condensation formed in the bore, will be absorbed by the powder and the solution, however small,will begin to work on the bore.  I'll polish the breech face again.  
Stay tuned...

[mhall]

  i have had the same problem as some of you using the lube for hunting. i went back to the mink oil for hunting. love the stuff for matches but if you use it to hunt i would fire it off every day.Mike

[Seven]

Well TOF, I had unbreeched the barrel, cleaned it and checked it.  No bore light needed.  It was spotless.  -Chad

[Daryl]

Thanks for your results, Seven.

 Taylor - that is good news and I'm very happy to hear it.  The next test will be the kicker- changing the moisture level due to condensation.

 When we hunted in cold weather for Moose where it was -40 to -56 sometimes, we left the rifles out side the tent or in a vehicle, vents plugged or leather stip underneath the hammer on the nipple, still loaded, unless they were fired. In the case of being fired and re-loaded, they were discharged and cleaned, then loaded a-new.

 Mink oil as sold by Track worked in my 14 bore - several months loaded (from October to January or Feb) finally discharged and cleaned - no rust.

[T*O*F]

Well TOF, I had unbreeched the barrel, cleaned it and checked it.  No bore light needed.  It was spotless.

Chad,
Don't get yer shorts in a bunch.  As is so often the case, people confuse "intent" with "content."

My post was about the quoted "statement" concerning general practices and had absolutely nothing to do with you, other than you inferred that it did.

[Seven]

TOF,
I'm not upset at all.  You DID quote my earlier post and ask "This seems to be a rather common statement, but flies in the face of actual common practice.  Please tell me how this is possible unless a person drops a bore light down his barrel and examines it each time before he loads."  I was merely responding to your questions.  Sorry if it got you going.  -chad

[Daryl]

I checked the mix I made up.  It was too stiff for sub-freezing shooting, but softened easily between the fingers.  Beeswax/Olive oil/ Neetsfoot oil.  I wasn't going to add the olive oil but ran out of neetsfoot oil.  This mix looks like it might be perfect for cold weather ctg. shotoing with BP, though. When loading it in the .40, I was punching the ball through the patches - too stiff to conform around the ball at the muzzle, although it sure loaded easily (especially when the ball punched though )  When fired, the fouling remained very soft and it was easy to re-load. This tells me the powder gasses melted the 'grease' onto the bore and kept the fouling soft. Normally, if you punch the ball through the patch, the bore fouls badly & the next shot is difficult to seat. This didn't happen - ever -, which tells me it would make a terrific bullet lube for the Sharps - modified with more Beeswax depending on temperature, of course.  As far as a patched ball lube, anything with beeswax in it will be too hard for sub-freezing temps, I believe.  Back to LHV!

I should note that I lubed a few as-cast .458" 500gr. bullets with it this lube and at room temp, it was quick and easy to do with just the fingers by first scraping the base of the bullet across the lube, then wiping the raised flash of lube around the bullet - done.

[Darkhorse]

Let me go into a little more detail about my rusted .40 bore with LHV. First off, and most importantly, the bore did not rust where the LHV patched ball was seated or any of the barrel where it was pushed down. The bore rusted only where the powder charge was!
Now for me this throws a whole new perspective onto things.
The bore had been cleaned with alcohol before loading it was squeaky clean with no protective coating at all. This is where the galvanic corrosion took place. Basicallty (if I have this right) a chemical reaction induced by specific atmospheric conditions where the moisture inherent to black powder pulls Iron molecules from the bore walls (barrel).
My hunting load process now is this: I do the same thing as I've always done down to the alcohol, because I use Jim Chambers heavy oil as a bore protective and I want it out of both the barrel and touch hole. The only difference is the last thing I do is run a patch lightly saturated with LHV through the bore and let it dry.
Then I load the rifle.
I trust LHV to protect my guns and also use it on my centerfires in deer camp.
But for real longtime protection I use Jim Chambers heavy oil.

[Daryl]

That's an interesting observation, Darkhorse.  My bores have never rusted where the powder sits. There is a film of damp or dry WD40 in that area which may be protecting the bore.  It doesn't seem to hurt the powder charge, either.

[Seven]

My bores have never rusted where the powder sits. There is a film of damp or dry WD40 in that area which may be protecting the bore. 

  Now THAT might just be part of my problem!! 

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Well, I've pulled the plug and the load on the test barrel.  I loaded 65 grains of FFg GOEX and a .023" denim patch soaked with Lehigh valley Lube and a .495" pure lead round ball.  Every evening, I brought the barrel inside after spending the day in the car port where cold and moisture have access to it.  The factory finished outside of the barrel incidentally is unaffected in any way, except the breech end where i seated the plug is rusted some.

Here are some photos of the results...





Observations:  first, a ring of rust has formed where the patch met the bore.  The Lehigh did not protect the bore, in  fact, it caused the problem.  Second, the powder did not rust the bore.  It is perfect where the powder lay.  Note here that the face of the plug has some pitting that is new, so the powder has a potential to rust your bore.  Third, the Lehigh is mostly evaporated.  None of the powder is stuck to the patch - all is dry.  In your barrel, the lube can and does evaporate.  Fourth, the nine days of coming in and out of the cold has done the deed.  To prevent this from happening in your rifle, you must either shoot or pull the load each night before retiring the rifle in your camp, or leave it outside where it will not warm up and cause the condensation issue.

This test needs to be repeated now, with a grease (winter/hunting) lube. 

Comments??

[Daryl]

I might add, that Taylor's first test was for 5 days, straight out side - without bringing it inside.  After those 5 days, the bore showed no rust where the LHV lubed patched ball sat - however there was some small amount of powder on the base of the patched ball.

The new test was slightly different - involving bringing the barrel inside each night.  I submit the dryed out LV in the patch attracted the condensation and therefore rusted. What I don't understand is why the rest of the barrel was uneffected.

Note there was no vent in the test barrel in either test.
 Another observation is that the LHV seemed to completely dry out - even ont he bawe of the patched ball where the powder was in contact with the patch, yet none was ruined by the LHV.

 Another observation  - during the test in the plastic pre-load tubes, both ends were probably sealed? not just the powder end. This would prevent the LHV from evapourating and allow it to soak and ruin some of the charge.  Otherwise I cannot see why the plastic tubed test would show a lot of ruined powder, whereas neither of Taylor's tests showed this.  Thanks to Taylor for pointing the probable sealed tubes to me.

[Roger Fisher]

Shows that condensation does and will occur with those temp. changes. 

This is good information, and thanks for your work on this. 

Lets see now, next to ponder is the test with grease..

[Eric Laird]

Maybe it wasn't the LHV lube that attracted the condensation and caused the rust - like was pointed out, why wasn't the rest of the bore rusted? Perhaps the cuprit was the patch - it could absorb condensation/moisture and hold it against the bore after the LHV had evaporated. Just a thought.
Eric