carved Schutzen

[blunderbuss]

This came into my shop yesterday thought I'd share. And just when I thought I could carve I don't know if this is a fancy rifle or a piece of art that can shoot. Look at the Damascus in the barrel also note what I think is silver (tarnished) inlay on the sides of the barrel

[westerner]

Gorgeous!   

Those Germans didnt mess around when they built a rifle. 

Post more pictures, please. 

          Joe.

[blunderbuss]

 Sorry about the pictures I'm caught somewhere between photo bucket and confusion

[Dphariss]

Schuetzen shooting was a serious sport in Germany and here in America at one time.
Serious prize money at stake.
I wonder if this was a prize?

Dan

[Dphariss]

Schuetzen shooting was a serious sport in Germany and here in America at one time.
Serious prize money at stake.
I wonder if this was a prize?

Dan

Darn got so busy ogling the carving I missed that its not necessarily a schuetzen rifle.
I gotta start getting more sleep.
Dan

[blunderbuss]

Right I said schutzen because I didn't know what else to call it it has no proofs ,no maker marks of any kind just the name on top which was a famous engineer in Germany who was made royalty. Could have been a prize it would work for me.

[westerner]

Looks like a Schuetzen rifle to me.  Not all the early Schuetzens had a pronged butt plates. 

If it were a hunting rifle the rear sight would be on the barrel. 

These old rifles are very hard to research because the printed catalog had not yet been invented. 

Not a whole lot written on the type either. 

          Joe.   

[The other DWS]

I was going to guess VERY fancy "hunting rifle"  partially due to the carved scene of the triumphant hunters bringing home what looks to me to be a bear on the cart and the sling button on the stock. admittedly the "lollipop" site I think I see might be more of a target thing.  but in any case I strongly guess it is an over-the-top ornate piece for a presentation rifle so our rues of logic may not apply.  IE shiney silver inlays on the barrell of a hunting gun

more pictures if at all possible?

Any background?   WWII trophy maybe, "confiscated" from an estate collection?

[blunderbuss]

The owner gave me a long story about how his uncle came to bring it back from Germany after the war but anything I could relate to you about that would be hear say on hear say of family lore  

[Dphariss]

Looks like a Schuetzen rifle to me.  Not all the early Schuetzens had a pronged butt plates. 

If it were a hunting rifle the rear sight would be on the barrel. 

These old rifles are very hard to research because the printed catalog had not yet been invented. 

Not a whole lot written on the type either. 

          Joe.   

It could easily be a multi-purpose rifle. Making absolute pronouncements is always a mistake so its not "necessarily" a Schuetzen. The owner may have ordered it without the hooked plate. We will never know. I am not well enough informed in german rifles the be commenting in absolutes. But its just not stocked like a Schuetzen from what I can see.
Maybe someone who has more knowledge will check in.
But Schuetzen was not something you wanted to go into handicappped because as I stated there was a lot of money involved. One American shooter attended a match in the late 19th century and had to pay a boy to carry his winnings to the train. Thousands were there to be won, in gold, not gift certificates.
It was the celebrity/superstar sport of the time in some areas.
Dan

[feuerbixler]

What a wonderful rifle! I would like to have that rifle for my small collection about Munich's gunsmithing.

In my opinion and after my personal researches about the old gunsmiths of Munich: for sure it is a schuetzen rifle!

Franz Xaver Baader was a royal gunsmith for schuetzen rifles (target rifles), hunting rifles and pistols. He was in business from approx. 1840 to 1865 in Munich.

He displayed his rifles and his manufacturing knowledge on the industrial exhibitions all over Europe. And I guess this is a "show rifle", which was shown on one of these exhibitions in the 1840's or 1850's.

            Biggi from Bavaria. 

[kutter]

An ornate hunting rifle is my guess. But only a guess of course.
The inlays on the bbl look like silver. Looks like the engraver also used a good amt of them on the lock and side plates and the 'patch' box.

Sling swivels front and back (button in the back) and a ramrod just remind me of a hunting rifle.
We still put highly precise iron sights on some of our best quality hunting rifles these days,,why not then.

Perhaps a special rifle that only made it to the local shooting events to show off abit,,but who wouldn't.

Thanks for posting the pictures..

[blunderbuss]

What a wonderful rifle! I would like to have that rifle for my small collection about Munich's gunsmithing.

In my opinion and after my personal researches about the old gunsmiths of Munich: for sure it is a schuetzen rifle!

Franz Xaver Baader was a royal gunsmith for schuetzen rifles (target rifles), hunting rifles and pistols. He was in business from approx. 1840 to 1865 in Munich.

He displayed his rifles and his manufacturing knowledge on the industrial exhibitions all over Europe. And I guess this is a "show rifle", which was shown on one of these exhibitions in the 1840's or 1850's.

            Biggi from Bavaria. 

Gruss Gott aus Texas

 How much do you think this rifle would bring? ball park figure.

[feuerbixler]

It's always the same: a question of demand and supply...

...I don't know if there are a lot of collectors for exactly such rifles.

In my opinion, a price more than 3000-4000 bucks would be absolutely exorbitant. It's "only" a 150 years old rifle with nice stock carving and some nice features. Maybe it was a donated prize rifle, but in this case there would be a plate on it. I think it was a show rifle, never really used for shooting at the range.

But there are enough really rich collectors, and when one collector wants to own it real bad, maybe he would pay more.

         Biggi.   

[blunderbuss]

 It doesn't ever appear to have been fired. No pitting around the lock or anywhere for that matter.

[excess650]

The Germans and swiss were definitely over the top when it came to fancy guns.

It appears that a piece of the carving has broken off.  If you look at the underside of the stock behind the grip, it appears that a wolf is on top of a headless hunter.

[blunderbuss]

 That's correct and his uncle had the broken piece but can't find it now (Things that make you say bad words)
 Biggi from Bavaria told me that Franz Xaver Baader was a royal gun maker from 1840- 65 and did exhibitions in Europe sure would be nice to find a picture of the headless hunter.

[Kermit]

I'd listen to Biggi and quit speculatin'.

[blunderbuss]

 
Yea that's right the speculation came from the owner of the rifle Biggi shoots Muzzle loaders too She's been to compitation over here. Real nice lady she even puts up with my bad German

[The other DWS]

even more astounding she puts up with Joe (westerner) in small doses when she crosses the pond.

[westerner]

She's a shooter alright. 

Biggi had never shot my rifle, till she won the king target with it at Glasgow MT last summer.  One shot one win.



She shot 91/100, OH in a match near Munich this weekend. 

Quite a gal.

       Joe.

[Tim Crosby]

 I edited the pix for you.

  Tim C.