Author Topic: Shooting the 62 caliber  (Read 60872 times)

Daryl

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2012, 11:42:32 PM »
No- swaged balls are NOT more accurate. They are not even round. You have much better chance of casting a round ball than expecting swaged balls to be round. Of course, some moulds to not cast round balls either, but the ball is more concentic than a swaged ball.

As I understand it, swaged balls are rolled to get rid of a wide band that is formed around them in the swaging process.  Even though rolled the band still causes non-round balls.

In a bench or very accurate rifle, cast will always outshoot swaged.  Some swaged balls are better than others.  
« Last Edit: January 23, 2012, 06:22:49 PM by Daryl »

Offline plastikosmd

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2012, 11:48:44 PM »
ok thank you, wanted to make sure I was on the right track. 

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2012, 12:16:16 AM »
Plastikosmd, you are not changing the subject. All I shoot in my muzzloaders are cast balls. I agree with Daryl, and I do not think a swaged ball will out shoot a cast ball. I know this sounds odd, but the reason I am going to order a box of swaged .600 round balls is to just look at them. I plan on setting a couple on my computer desk for that reason. If I get a 62 caliber, I know I will buy a mold or two. You guys have to realize I'm from Arkansas. 

not to change topics but why the concern about cast balls in 62? My RB bench 62 shoots .626 cast around 1 -1.25" 5 shot, 100yrd. (still workin up loads) Would I do better with a swaged ball?

Offline plastikosmd

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2012, 01:20:07 AM »
Following your example I just bought a z06 corvette matchbox and set it on my wife's desk. How long should it take before she buys me one? :)

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2012, 01:01:39 PM »
They are 16.50 a box roundball. gee

Plastikosmd, she will more than likely say, "Why in the world do you want another one... you already have one, and, by the way, why is it on my desk!"   ;D

Well, it is 3:57 am, and I cannot sleep for thinking about it.   

Offline bob in the woods

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #30 on: January 23, 2012, 01:52:30 PM »
Actually, they are $ 16.50 per box of 50  = $ 33.00 per 100   ;D  [ + shipping ! ]

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #31 on: January 23, 2012, 07:40:19 PM »
Well.. I just ordered a box of .600 balls, and the total was $29.20.

Man! that is have the price of a good mold!

Guys, this is really going to eat your cake. I went ahead and ordered some pre cut patches for a rifle I dont have. YET!

 ;D

BrownBear

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #32 on: January 23, 2012, 07:43:48 PM »
Guys, this is really going to eat your cake. I went ahead and ordered some pre cut patches for a rifle I dont have. YET!

I can relate. I bought some fancy driving gloves 20 years ago, but I'm still waiting for Santa to park a sports car in my driveway.  ;D

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #33 on: January 23, 2012, 09:25:34 PM »
Thanks BrownBear...I need a good laugh.

BrownBear

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #34 on: January 24, 2012, 12:03:21 AM »
Thanks BrownBear...I need a good laugh.

Call it hearty encouragement to get the gun soon.  I'm here to tell you there's no future in waiting on Santa for such things!   ;)

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #35 on: January 24, 2012, 12:44:12 AM »
I would like to think roundball, smallpatch, BrownBear, D. Taylor Sapergia, Daryl, and  bob in the woods for the recommended load data on the 62 caliber and others on the recommended twist rate.

BrownBear, the 54 caliber Hawken has already been ordered. Now, I am debating on having an interchangeable 62 barrel added.  The extra fitted barrel will run the price up about $800. I just don't know. The money is not that big of a deal. From what I have read in this thread, it looks like it would definitely be fun to have and shoot. 

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #36 on: January 24, 2012, 02:08:42 PM »
That is interesting roundball. Kind of what I had in mind. Does someone sell the over powder and shot wads for the .54 caliber.

I have done this in my .54 caliber T/C, but I use toilet paper.   ???

excess650

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #37 on: January 24, 2012, 03:28:19 PM »
That is interesting roundball. Kind of what I had in mind. Does someone sell the over powder and shot wads for the .54 caliber.

I have done this in my .54 caliber T/C, but I use toilet paper.   ???

Track of The Wolf lists .125 over powder wads, .025 over shot wads, and felt wads.  I'm sure there are other vendors.

Daryl

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #38 on: January 24, 2012, 06:53:42 PM »
For consistant results with a smoothbore with shot, one must work at it as RB has done.  Working up a consistantly patterning load for a smoothbore is just as difficult or even more difficult at times than working up an accurate shooting load for a rifle.  Smoothbores with cylinder bores can be quite frustrating due to wad disturbance of the patterns.  An even distribution of pellets on the paper can be very difficult to achieve. As little as a 5 gr. difference in powder charge can mean the difference between a good load and one that shoots donuts.

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #39 on: January 25, 2012, 05:21:38 AM »

The large bore Kentucky, over 54, is a hare's breath from a fantasy gun IMO.

 I am glad you included the "IMO" rather than simply stating it as fact. It is simply not true, there are PLENTY of existing original longrifles in calibers larger than .54. While I have not recorded the caliber of every longrifle I've ever handled I can say that it is not at all out of the ordinary to see them with big bores. If you own the RCA books, take a look. I realize that just pulling numbers out of a book or two doesn't really prove my point, however it should prove to you that the bigger bores were far more common than you may think, certainly no fantasy. Even if you exclude the European guns and military arms, $#*! even if you exclude smoothbore guns I think you'll be suprised. 
     
 

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #40 on: January 25, 2012, 02:42:03 PM »
Back in the 90s I bought all the flintlock books I could find. I think three of the books were on the caplocks, accouterments, and powder horns. I sold the books a while back, and I had the RCA. If I remember correctly, some of these rifles were larger than .54 caliber in the RCA and other books.

I spent most of yesterday reading articles on the internet about shooting shot from a rifle. There were problems with close range doughnut shot patterns, and barrel leading. so... I guess shooting shot from a .62 caliber rifle is out of the question.

BrownBear

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #41 on: January 25, 2012, 04:56:31 PM »

I spent most of yesterday reading articles on the internet about shooting shot from a rifle. There were problems with close range doughnut shot patterns, and barrel leading. so... I guess shooting shot from a .62 caliber rifle is out of the question.


I haven't tried it with a muzzleloader, but that's because I have so much experience doing so with rifled modern arms, mostly handguns, but a few stints with lever carbines in pistol calibers, too.

I worked in the bush in very serious snake country for ten years, carrying an assortment of arms and using Speer  factory shot loads and using their components to do a lot of serious handloading and testing in a search for better results. 

I'm sorry to talk about modern arms and ammo like this, but I think it provides very useful insights for anyone contemplating shot in a rifle.

The best patterns I could manage with 44 mag from a carbine would not consistently hit small cottontails at 15 feet. You'd get some, but others would blow right through the pattern untouched.  And the sure killing limit on snakes was about 6 feet with the same 44 load from a 4" handgun.

Consider this:  The most astounding shot I made in 10 years was a rattlesnake between my feet.  I stopped when I heard him, my feet spread a normal step apart.  He was stretched out rather than coiled, his head moving slowly side to side deciding which ankle came first.  I fired a shot with a 4" 357, and was absolutely amazed when he emerged unscathed from the dust cloud.  I was relieved that he moved on and killed him a second later, but the most amazing part to me was that in missing him, I also missed my own feet.  That's how badly the pattern spreads.

I long ago used up all my curiosity about shot from a rifled muzzleloader, than you very much!    ;D

Flinter

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #42 on: January 25, 2012, 06:41:56 PM »
Roundball, I spent about 3 hours deer hunting last yeas, This was because of things I am going through that I cannot talk about on the ALR or this thread. Normally, 99% of my shooting is at paper targets. Since I have had Jim’s flintlock, I have shot about 5 pounds of powder through it at targets. I have thought about a fowler, but since I am cripple, I have a hard time walking through the woods squirrel hunting.

If I get a .62 caliber rifle, I think it will be used mostly for deer hunting.

 

BrownBear, be careful, or you might get Dennis posting on this thread.

BrownBear

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #43 on: January 25, 2012, 06:45:46 PM »

 BrownBear, be careful, or you might get Dennis posting on this thread.


That's okay, because the info landed where it needed to be.  I realize that I forgot the private message option, or I would have dealt with it there.  Apologies to Dennis for the oversight.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #44 on: January 25, 2012, 06:58:04 PM »

The large bore Kentucky, over 54, is a hare's breath from a fantasy gun IMO.

 I am glad you included the "IMO" rather than simply stating it as fact. It is simply not true, there are PLENTY of existing original longrifles in calibers larger than .54. While I have not recorded the caliber of every longrifle I've ever handled I can say that it is not at all out of the ordinary to see them with big bores. If you own the RCA books, take a look. I realize that just pulling numbers out of a book or two doesn't really prove my point, however it should prove to you that the bigger bores were far more common than you may think, certainly no fantasy. Even if you exclude the European guns and military arms, $#*! even if you exclude smoothbore guns I think you'll be suprised. 
     
 

In reality I would not be surprised.  I have surveyed a considerable number rifles for bore size and even did averages and in one case a bar graph. In doing this one is at the mercy of the people checking the bores and sometimes the same rifle may be listed as 40 in one book and 42 in another for example....
Last night put the calibers of RCA 18 thru 142 in a spreadsheet.
The average caliber of the American rifled bore arms in RCA numbers 18 through 142 with calibers listed is 52.1. This not including the 90 caliber wall gun.
If we drop the two variant rifles #141 & 142 we get an average size of 51.4. There are only 49 American rifles in the two books with a bore size listed. Yes, there are large bore rifles. We do see that 22 are under 51 caliber, there are only 4 over 60 caliber including 141 & 142 so 62 caliber would be very rare I think.  This does not include the many smooth rifles ranging from about 42 caliber up. It does include a certified Rev War rifle used in battle. The 47 caliber "Thomas Rifle" it was taken to England as a trophy and its probably very close to its original caliber though it did have barrel work done, including straightening and "leading" by Durs Egg. I find this rifles story interesting but its outside the scope of the post.
There are other sources  there is a circa 1770 Resor rifle in near new condition shown in  "Steel Canvas" listed as 42 caliber.

Now lets look at the "rest of the story". Some of these rifles were is service for 60-70 years perhaps longer. The Albrecht has been converted to percussion and was likely at least 50 years old when this was done. Its 48 caliber.
Rifles were obviously freshed, its possible to find 1803 Harpers Ferry military rifles that are now 58-60 caliber rifled. They were not made this way. Many original rifles show vise tracks on the barrels and wrench distorted breechplugs. Evidence the plug was removed at least once by someone with little regard to the condition of the parts when he was done. This was surely to do some work on the interior of the barrel.
There is ample documentation for both freshing AND making new breech plugs which would have been needed in many cases since many original guns have breech plugs that are only slightly larger than the groove dimension of the barrel. This tends to refute the idea that freshing did not greatly increase bore size.
So its safe to assume that some, possibly most, of these rifles were smaller and perhaps even significantly smaller when they were made. So its not only possible, its LIKELY that the average would have been under 50 when these rifles were new.

Here is a similar study I did 10-15 years ago of rifles in the "Kentucky Rifle a True American Heritage" and "Kentucky Rifles and Pistols 1750-1850" its only flintlocks or obvious conversions to percussion and include rifle stocked smooth bores with full oct barrels even though they skew the numbers higher the average is still under about 50.


Note that about 150 of the 195 are 44 to 50 caliber. The perfect, practical size range for all around use in the East.  So if we look at effectiveness what do we find. We find the 50 caliber is very effective on Deer sized animals, capable or breaking a shoulder blade a 60 yards, for example, and still passing through. We find that even the 45 will kill deer to 120-150 yards.
How about the use against people? Many wonder if Fraser was actually killed at 300 yards. Some wonder if a typical rifle ball would be accurate enough or carry enough velocity to kill a man at this distance. I shot 3 shots at 300 yards at a man silhouette with a 50 caliber rifle using 75 gr of powder at 285 yards (laser). I found that in three shots I could hit the man silhouette, and from one of the misses that it certainly would kill a man at this distance. So for the uses of the time I state that a rifle over 50 caliber, while it might be more suitable for specific things, is not necessary.

The 67 caliber JP Beck is interesting.  However, it was not likely a hunters rifle (nor 141 & 142). If anyone wants an illustration of why order 60-80 .662 balls from Track of the Wolf (J.J. Henry had 70 balls in his pouch in 1775) and put them in a pouch with a horn with enough powder to shoot them, enough patching, enough tow to wipe the bore.... Then carry it around all day, preferably walking 8-20 miles. Perhaps swimming a river with it (JJ Henry lost his rifle in a river but kept his horn and pouch). Then do the same exercise with 60-80 rounds of .445 round balls. I have a 67 caliber rifle, not a Kentucky though. It has some advantages but they are out weighed by the weight of the ammo for practical use where I live. The Beck rifle and #s 141-142 would have been useful as light wall guns but they are a liability unless hunting something big, hairy and dangerous. The 67-68-72 caliber rifle is very close to Forsthe’s 14 bore (with #15 ball) rifle that would shoot through an Indian Elephants head from side to side.
Why would a long hunter want a large caliber rifle? We have an account of Boone having a 66 caliber rifle. Its possible and we have no choice but to accept this. Though it was not direct from Boone. However, Boone was poor for most of his life and was hounded by creditors. Why would he want a a 16-18 to the pound rifle that used more of everything when 38-50 to the pound rifle would work just as well from the hunters perspective and be far cheaper to shoot? Assuming Boone had a rifle this large I would doubt he kept it long. For one thing when poaching and trying to avoid what was essentially the "Game Warden" in Kentucky (except modern Game Wardens are not likely the brain the violator with a hatchet) why would I want a rifle that produces a loud report?

The Haymaker could be considered a long hunter rifle I suppose, though it’a larger than I would want being listed as 52  and was used  for years after Taylor's death and could easily have been recut at least once or twice. However, being a pre-rev war rifle it should be larger than 52 if we believe the dogma I heard in the 1960s.
http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/hancock_taylor.html tells the story of Hancock Taylor.

Frankly I dislike averages, they are often misleading. I suppose some math whiz might come up with a better way to figure what caliber Kentucky was used in the Rev-War period for example. However, this will still not change the statements from the past that indicate that the rifle was under 50 caliber in the majority of cases.
So a 62 caliber Kentucky, while not impossible, would be rare based on surviving examples and accounts from the time. Based on this I consider large bore rifles MADE as large bore rifles, over 52-54, to be an anomoly, increasingly so as the caliber exceeds 58.
One other thing, a great many original rifles are "freed" at the muzzle and for people using crude methods of measurement this can increase the listed caliber by 1-2 calibers.

Dan
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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #45 on: January 25, 2012, 07:25:51 PM »
BrownBear, I am not trying to belittle you in any way.

I got a good laugh outa the last few posts.

Humor has turned everything around.  ;D

Daryl

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #46 on: January 25, 2012, 08:42:59 PM »
When I lived in Smithers in the late 70's and hunted with a muzzleoading rifle, it was a .58 cal. Hawken that Taylor built me.  I loaded 140gr. 2f with .022" denim and .575" round ball for moose, deer and bear but when grouse shooting, it as loaded with 75gr. 2f, 2 thin cardboard wads  &1oz #9's with another card wad over the shot. The shot patterned well  enough to kill grouse to about 20yards. That was all that was needed.  I guess I just lucked out on a load that did not donut.  Now, I rather suspect the thin cardboard wads were responsible for the reasonable shooting and not blowing through the pattern as it left the muzzle.  At something like 580 pellets to the ounce, 9's were an obvious choice. 

I did not find they leaded the bore - at least not noticably when I cleanied the rifle.  I'd only fire perhaps 5 or 6 shots at most in a short walk around for birds.  It worked - at close range.

Offline Ian Pratt

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #47 on: January 25, 2012, 09:46:08 PM »
I don't intend to derail this thread, just want to point out that bigger bore early American guns are absolutely not an anomaly. I'll just say Dan I am guessing we are just going to disagree on this point. The reason I brought up RCA is it is a handy reference that many of us have, and a quick count helps proves my point. As far as bores being elarged over time, this is not an unreasonable expectation but I think it's unwise to make that assumption for every gun you see in a book. Every gun has a different story, one mid 18th century .60 + caliber rifle that I am familiar with comes to mind - examining the rifle and considering the known history about it,  it was obviously used hard for a time, but then retired except for occasional hunts.
 As I said I have handled plenty of them that were made originally with large bores, regardless of whether or not they had been taken up a bore size or two over time. I have handled and inspected two original larger bored rifle guns within the past few months, one a .68 caliber French and Indian war era rifle, the other a .62 caliber rifle thought to have been made around the time of the Revolutionary War.
Some of the earlier larger bored American guns I have had the opportunity to examine also follow in the Germanic "rifle culture" tradition of having a big bore with much faster rifling twist than we might expect to see for the caliber, something else that puzzles a lot of us until maybe we allow ourselves to drop parts of our modern thinking. The earliest iron mounted American rifle I have had the pleasure to visit with is referred to by some as "the Old Holston Rifle", thought to be mid 18th century. It is also a .62 caliber rifle with a fairly meaty barrel. In examining this rifle I dropped a light down the bore - suprise, faster than 1 in 40 in a barrrel near 47" long, and with enough weight you'd not expect it had ever been much smaller in bore size. Anyhow I'm going to stop now, I know that Dan there's no way I'll change your thoughts on this, just wanted to share my observations.
  

  Shooting  the .62 - I built a copy of the Holston rifle for a customer a couple years ago. Ed Rayl made me a barrel off the specs of the original, although we did go with a slightly slower twist rate to suit the customer, 1 in 56 if I recall. Shot very well (and comfortably) with 90 to 100 grains of Goex 2f, a .610 ball and I believe an .018 patch. Admittedly I only shot it at 25 and 50 yards, maybe with a slower twist you might have more stability and better accuracy at a longer range using a bit bigger charge - or maybe not. There are things that look good on paper that don't always translate to what works in the field.
« Last Edit: January 25, 2012, 09:49:19 PM by I.Pratt »

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #48 on: January 26, 2012, 08:03:28 AM »
Anytime we try to get inside people's heads from 250 years ago it gets difficult. So the why of what they did or owned can be difficult to figure.
I never said there were no large bore rifles. I said they are an anomaly.

anomaly |əˈnäməlē|
noun ( pl. anomalies )
1 something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected:


This "50 caliber as typical" can be based on the WRITINGS OF THE TIME without looking at the surviving rifles or supposing what would be practical, or that the bores were enlarged by freshing if we wish.

But the outcome will still show typical as about 50 caliber unless someone finds some information I don't have.
If someone finds a PERIOD reference to 20 to 25 to the pound being common in Kentucky rifles I would be interested to see it.

Dan
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Re: Shooting the 62 caliber
« Reply #49 on: January 26, 2012, 04:24:44 PM »
I ran a gun shop for about 10 years. When Arkansas first opened the muzzle loader deer season, I was the only one in a town of 20,000 that sold black powder rifles. It took the other gun shops about 3 years to catch on. I would say of the hundreds of rifles I sold, 90% of the rifles were 50 caliber. I sold just a few 45 and 54 calibers.

Ian and Dphariss, I realize the 62 caliber is not practical. You are right in the fact that we will never know why someone wanted an impractical or 62 caliber rifle, but there were a few.

Strange as it may seem, I want one for the mule kicking stomping power from the felt recoil of the butt stock when the 62 caliber rifle is fired. I plan on building a 15 to 20 station trail walk. The .62 rifle will more than likely never be carried on this trail because of the balls per pound.