Walnut for Stock

[grabenkater]

EDIT to correct information

[rich pierce]

It's softer than walnut so be careful as you work on it not to dent it etc. Should have great color.

[Jim Kibler]

Is butternut closer in appearance to European Walnut than American Walnut?

Jim

[Robby]

I would think even an exceptional piece of butternut would be too weak for gun stocking. But there is always the exception to the exception. I hope it works for you, it is a nice looking wood!
Robby

[smokinbuck]

I once had a chunk gun with a 52" barrel that was full stocked in Butternut. Worked just fine.
Mark

[Hudnut]

A number of years ago, some manufacturers starting using "amwal" for stocks.  Butternut as a substitute for walnut.  I've made a couple of stocks from it, refinished some Remingtons.  It can be attractive.  Works nicely.  It is much softer than walnut, easier to split.  Fuzzy to sand.  I found it was easiest to sand if a coat of finish was applied to stiffen up the fuzz, and then sand.  Repeat with each finer grit.

[smart dog]

Hi Grabenkater,
I have a special place in my heart for butternut because my father loved to carve animals using it.  It was a love-hate relationship for him though.  He loved the color of the wood when finished because it had an almost antiqued bronze tone that looked really nice but it was lousy to carve because it was soft.  It cut easily but would not hold details well.  As a result, Dad used it to make more stylized versions of animals that had less detail and smoother surfaces.  For that purpose the wood was spectacular.  I've never encountered a plank of butternut (and I have worked with many pieces) that I would consider using for a muzzleloading gunstock.  It is too soft and weak.  It might be fine for a two piece modern stock but IMO not for a muzzleloader.  Moreover, it will in no way be closer to European walnut in color.  To be blunt, you would be a lot better off using a dense black walnut blank and giving it a wash with yellow water-based aniline dye to rid it of the purple-brown undertone common in black walnut.  You will have to doctor up butternut much more than that to have it look even vaguely like European walnut.  Below are photos of guns made with black walnut but altered as I described to look like English walnut. The second picture of the pistols shows them in natural light.

dave



 

[The other DWS]

Years ago when I was working on French colonial replicas for my museum-sponsored reenactment group, I did a lot of research in small local museums in Canada looking at old local arms.  A fair number were much-modified and converted trade and militia (Tulle and St Etienne) arms.  All made in France and stocked in Euro-wood(though there was one I suspected was a very old restock using the original pattern and reusing the hardware).
 There was no way that affordable black walnut could be made to look remotely accurate for the replicas. Ther grain and proe structure is all far too wrong. After some consultation with some knowledgable wood crafters we settled on stocks made of American wild (black) cherry wood.  The natural color was off but that was easily handled with various stains and dyes as well as dyed and rubbed down varnishes.  The main thing was that the grain structure was much closer to the original euro-walnut.  And it was readily available locally as blanks at reasonable costs.   I'm currently working on two personal flint long guns, both will be color manipulated cherry.

[volatpluvia]

I walked into the shop of Kit Ravenshear one day while he was stocking a 14 gauge smoothbore.  He explained that he was using butternut.  He had received a supply of it and thought it was great wood for his purpose.  He said it worked nicely with hand tools but did not machine well.  That is why he had the wood because the person that had bought it originally wanted to machine it and it did not work well, it was too 'stringy'.  Kit made a number of gonnes with it.
volatpluvia

[smart dog]

Hi,
Below are photos of original Wogdens made with English or European walnut and my Wogden inspired pistols made with black walnut stained as I described previously.

DWS,
If you figured out how to make black cherry look like European walnut could you post some photos of your guns along with some originals for comparison?  That would be a very useful and much appreciated.




dave

[Bob Roller]

Those pistols are either the zenith of simple elegance or demonstrate the very elegance of simplicity itself. Understated but much appreciated in fine guns and grand rank automobiles.

Bob Roller

[grabenkater]

Thanks for all of the input, gentlemen.

 I am building a French trade gun kit from Mold and Gun and this is the stock I picked, so I am stuck with it. I suppose I will have to make due with what I have 

[Dphariss]

I don't get it.
When I want something that looks like and should be European Walnut I find a piece of European walnut.
Radical concept but it does work. So I call someone like Dunlap the see what is available.

Dan

[grabenkater]

I don't get it.
When I want something that looks like and should be European Walnut I find a piece of European walnut.
Radical concept but it does work. So I call someone like Dunlap the see what is available.

Dan

Dan,

Are you willing to pay for it? 

[The other DWS]

"could you post some photos of your guns along with some originals for comparison?"  I wish I could.  that work was in a past career, (different time and place), and I no longer have access to the research files (hard lesson learned) --which had few pictures of originals in any case and the replicas we made have since been dispersed.   My current projects are still a long ways from complete.

There are several good books on the guns of the northern furtrade that illustrate the originals though high quality color photos that show the wood are few and far between.  Thats why I had to use my vacation time prowling the small town museums in Ontario hoping to actually find examples I could look at.  The larger provincial museums of course have larger collections but I was looking for the used, battered, and actual working guns; not the prime shiny restored exhibition examples

As to the stains I tend to mix yellows, reds, and some browns into a thinned penetrating stain that gives the cherry a walnutish color,  I have an old gallon bottle of boiled aconite root/pure turpentine that I have used as a deep stain on the raw wood before I do the last phases of scraping and sanding.   Each price of wood is individual so it varies by eye and taste.  I use thinned Tung oil as a sealer and general finish that top it off with a dark walnut colored varnish which I steel wool off in most of the wear areas leaving it as a aged dirt and grime build up in the crooks an crannies of the stock around the hardware.   None of my projects have ever had the crisp and glowing "fresh from the makers hands" look---purely a mater of personal preference; and I build strictly for my own use and enjoyment in any case.

At the time I started doing this, funding was VERY limited,  the internet did not exist, and I was unaware of the availability of Euro-walnut other than for the REAL high end modern custom gunstockers.  The use of cherry for stocks in NA was historical. it is a good solid stock wood, and the grain was a whole lot closer to the euro-walnut that than the Am Black walnut we had access to at the time.  It worked for us and we were happy with the look and function of the results.  and I still like working with cherry wood--personal preference obviously.

[smart dog]

I don't get it.
Dan

Hi Dan,
Maybe this will help.  It is all about price and availability.  I personally do not have the opportunity to travel to a wood supplier and select my wood so I often have to rely on the internet.  The supply of black walnut is much larger and I more often can find a piece that will work for my projects at a price that I can afford.  I then have the skill and knowledge to make it work as a substitute for English or European walnut if appropriate for my project.  Simple, radical, and it works.

dave

[The other DWS]

let me also add that walnut varieties have a myriad of density, grain, and pore patterns that dependon as much on the conditions where it was grown as on the putative sub species name assigned to it.

( Even the so called "english" walnut is not a native tree to England ("The trivial name walnut derives from Old English wealhhnutu, literally "foreign nut", wealh meaning "foreign" (coming from the prolific Indoeuropean word Walha).[1] The walnut was so called because it was introduced from Gaul and Italy. The Latin name for the walnut was nux Gallica, "Gallic nut"---the ubiquitous Wikipaedia)

I have seen some American Black Walnut that is every bit as dense, fine grained and small pored and the best of the prime euro-grades.  What I have seen that was of that quality was from areas that are more arid and windswept than my native upper midwest

Buying stock wood, (or other carving/turning/furniture) on the internet can be a real shot in the dark.  However good dealers are usually conservative in their rating and usually offer some sort of exchange program if it is not suitable to the customer.  nothing beats being able to hands-on view and select your wood in any case

[Dphariss]

let me also add that walnut varieties have a myriad of density, grain, and pore patterns that dependon as much on the conditions where it was grown as on the putative sub species name assigned to it.

( Even the so called "english" walnut is not a native tree to England ("The trivial name walnut derives from Old English wealhhnutu, literally "foreign nut", wealh meaning "foreign" (coming from the prolific Indoeuropean word Walha).[1] The walnut was so called because it was introduced from Gaul and Italy. The Latin name for the walnut was nux Gallica, "Gallic nut"---the ubiquitous Wikipaedia)

I have seen some American Black Walnut that is every bit as dense, fine grained and small pored and the best of the prime euro-grades.  What I have seen that was of that quality was from areas that are more arid and windswept than my native upper midwest

Buying stock wood, (or other carving/turning/furniture) on the internet can be a real shot in the dark.  However good dealers are usually conservative in their rating and usually offer some sort of exchange program if it is not suitable to the customer.  nothing beats being able to hands-on view and select your wood in any case

I live in Montana. There is little you can tell me about ordering wood that I don't know. Its ALWAYS mail order here for anything I would make a Long rifle from.
It does not matter that American Black Walnut is dense etc etc. I have yet to see a piece, and I have stocked hundreds of guns in it and worked on probably 1000 more walnut stocks, that matched decent European Walnut. Its just not the same and it does not cut or carve the same. No amount of claiming that one stock in 5 or 10 thousand is just as good will change this. Its just not the same stuff. Of all the walnuts I would prefer Bastogne for hardness, but I have only stocked 2 guns in it.. Its harder than about any American Walnut unless you are lucky and the two I used were very handsome when completed and one has shot 10s of thousands of rounds and has paid for itself many times over.

American Walnut is not European Walnut. Nor does it matter where "English" is native to. The discussion was for a FRENCH BUILT GUN. I assume that it is native to France. Since it seems the be common all the way from the Englsh Channel to China.
My point is that if I am stocking something that is supposed to be European Walnut and is supposed to look like European Walnut I use European Walnut. I would not use something that is likely to be very soft, difficult to work and possibly weak as well. Using cheap wood in gunmaking is a fundamental mistake and is very poor economy is the vast majority of cases.
But a great many people involved with MLs don't consider the ML to be a "real" firearm and so attempt to make or buy it as cheap as possible. Then wonder why the outcome leaves something to be desired.
People love to cut corners and do this and do that but they don't like someone asking the question of "why not just do it right". Right costs too much or more often people don't want to be bothered.
I like to be able to look back on a project and know I did it the best I knew how with the proper materials for the project. So if I am stocking a European gun I like the use European Walnut. Its also correct for a great many higher grade  late 19th Century American Guns.

Dan

[Old Ford2]

I have made several cabinets with butternut, it can be a beautiful wood. BUT it is very soft. Almost as soft as cedar.
It would be a shame to go to all the work of carving out a stock, only to have it crack at the wrist.
It is quite stable, and lite weight as well.
Wood screws strip easily in it.
I suppose if you selected the most exact piece of wood ( butternut )that complimented the curvature of the stock design, you might get by, but I really don't think it is worth the effort.
If you are looking for color, and with the grain density of butternut, you can shape your stock in walnut, and bleach the walnut with lye, which will replicate the color of butternut.
You will have to be careful with your choice of stain.
All the best
Fred

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Hmmm.. is it not true that much American wood was imported to England (& France?) and used for gunstocks?

[Hudnut]

There was a brief period when birdseye maple was popular on British sporting guns.  It was finished quite dark.
No doubt timber of all sorts was exported to England and continental Europe.  A vast amount of softwood went to England.  Whether any walnut was used in the gun trade, I don't know.
Enfield rifled muskets were stocked up with Italian walnut.  Charles Ross imported it for sporting and Mk. I and II Ross rifles, rather than use domestic.
Apart from North American black walnut, there is walnut with European ancestry grown in the US.  "Bastogne", formerly known as bastard walnut, is a hybrid grown primarily in California for nut production.
The European thinshell walnut on the gunstock market these days tends to be from the former Yugoslavia, Turkey, and further into Asia.

[Jim Kibler]

I don't ever recall seeing a 17th or 18th century European or English gun that was confirmed have been stocked in an American species of wood.  Perhaps they exist, but I've not encountered any.  Has anyone else?  Maple was mentioned, but is native to England and Europe as well as America.

[Dphariss]

Hmmm.. is it not true that much American wood was imported to England (& France?) and used for gunstocks?

People used to stocking guns in European Walnut are going to like American Walnut much especially with the freight cost from say Boston to London or Tulle or St. Etienne.
Lumber would be an obvious back haul for ships coming to the colonies. But European walnut is so superior I cannot see Black Walnut being imported for gunstocks.

I probably have not explained this properly. So I will try again.
First its hard to make headway in a discussion, and this more broken record stuff, when people feel they are making a prop or wall hanger. This seems the be the case with a great many people here and its even worse on the dedicated re-enactor sites.
If you want an AUTHENTIC 18th century firearm the firearms buyer/maker must ask himself in the context of the time "what would I want if my LIFE depended on the firearm being reliable in hard service?" Because this is the 18th century context.
With the question above in mind do we want a relatively soft, weak piece of wood or would we want a stronger piece of wood?
It has been mentioned here that stocking a gun is a lot of work, this is certainly true. So unless the workman figures his time as worthless the labor is worth MORE than the stock wood unless buying overpriced Turkish Walnut or buying a completely precaved stock then putting the parts in place and slapping on some finish from the hardware store.
A 300 dollar blank does not seem so expensive if the maker has maybe 800 bucks in labor doing layout, inletting, carving and finishing. Stock layout, sawing, putting in the barrel channel, rod groove and drilling the hole how long does this take? It's just the start. It can take an hour just to do the layout more for the neophyte. Goof the layout and firewood is a very real possibity.
The COST of making the stock is the same (if anything the low quality wood is more time consuming), but the low quality wood does nothing to enhance the value of the finished product and may DETRACT from it. Senseless.
Not doing a fancy gun? Indian trade gun of some sort? Don't need or want figure in the stock? Valid argument for plain wood. However, it is not an argument for LOW GRADE WOOD. There is no valid argument for poor quality wood.
The soft, weak wood is more likely to fail to some greater or lesser extent during inletting or shaping operations. Its actually harder to work, scrape, file or cut for it will often try to tear rather than cut since its weak. It will dent or even tear easier in use if it meets with a minor accident. A major accident will be more likely to break it.
As I stated before, using cheap, soft wood is a false economy, penny wise, dollar foolish stuff. There is no free lunch in gun making.
I have never talked to an experienced stock maker that thought that soft, low grade wood was advisable for use. I was told years ago to always use the best and in working for people who gave me low grade wood to work at times also I learned from experience.  ALWAYS use good wood and fancy wood if its at all suitable for the project.
So I am not continuing this discussion just to be a jerk or be contrary. I am trying to point out that low quality wood is never a bargain. Gunstocks are not cabinets or window trim or jewelry boxes.

Dan

[Jim Kibler]

Dan,

I think it helps, if you consider that some take take this stuff much more seriously than others.  This might just be a passing interest to some, but might consume the lifes of others.  Some are perfectly happy with something that may be considered junk by others.  Not trying to offend anyone, but I really think this is how it is and is a reason misunderstandings and arguments sometimes happen here.  There is a wide diversity of people represented here for sure.

Jim

[grabenkater]

Dphariss you and I both can relax, I am not making a prop, nor a wallhanger, I am trying to learn the delicate art of building my own flintlock firearm, yes to actually shoot.

I was assured from the dealer (reputable) that this was not butternut, but in fact, it is light colored black walnut.  The gentleman at the show who informed me that it was butternut was misinformed.