Author Topic: Purpose of octagon barrels?  (Read 30978 times)

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #25 on: January 25, 2012, 03:48:52 PM »
Chris,

Thanks for the comment, maybe later we can post a topic on barrel forging since it seems we have wandered off this topic.  Your observation is certainly true, I do the fusion weld in a very stout piece of angle iron with the open end pointing up.  I guess that acts in the same manner as a swage block.  Using the angle iron setup the hot barrel just slides in the long channel - it saves having to pick it up all the time to make the weld.  I must add here that I do the weld by myself, without a helper, and only having two arms there must be some modification to the two man process shown on your post.  I do forge the octagon flats on a simple anvil - but much after the weld is complete, sometimes the next day.  I do not forge around a mandrel (remember only two arms) but drive a mandrel in/out after each weld section is complete to round out the hole.  The mandrel is made as a slide hammer.

Danny,  I can tell that you have forged wrought iron.  I do not know the exact definition of "red short" - I have a pair with hearts and I Love You all over them.  Seriously, I try to keep wrought iron at least orange while forging.  If I continue to forge as it goes dull red, there is a high risk of the metal splitting along the slag strings.  This is especially true of coarse wrought iron and when working near the edge of a part.  Sometimes when I get that dratted split on a part the otherwise looks good, I will repair weld oxy-acetylene (but don't tell on me).

It has been really great corresponding with you all, but in a couple of days I will be serving my term overseas until late May and will probebly have little internet access until then.

Jim Everett

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #26 on: January 25, 2012, 08:20:02 PM »
Guys,

Holy Smokes - a magnified photo really makes the work look shabby!  Anyway, here is a photo of an in-process wrought iron barrel with the wedding band at the octagon/round transition.  As you can see it does not extend below barrel centerline where it wound be covered by the wood stock.  There seems to be no great advantage to continuing the ring all the way around - just more file work. 



Also, those ugly streaks in the metal on either side on the wedding ring are the slag streaks in the wrought iron, not flaws or mistakes.  They really look big under magnification, for sure.

Jim Everett

dannybb55

  • Guest
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #27 on: January 26, 2012, 03:10:35 AM »
Jim, Red short is when you are forging a stout iron bar, the bar gets too
cold and after a few taps the end falls off, usually just on the far side of the anvil. Bright heats are the way to go. I hope to have my shop built in the next few weeks, so when you get back I ought to have some things to post. Get it done Jim.
                                          Danny

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #28 on: January 26, 2012, 05:00:08 AM »
As to the the original question, I would agree that dannybb55 first post would cover most of the reasons.  As someone that has interest in forging I could agree also that good forging practice may have some influence. The first "rule" when forging is S_O_R or square to octagon to round.  For eg, when starting from round material, you must first square it up before you change shape or length other wise you may stress/crack the material during working. If you are finishing to a round shape, you go square first, then octagon then round. The Octagon shape "may" eliminate a forging step for the production worker. How this applies to barrel forging I am not too sure, but I sure would love to try it (forging bbls)at some point. I look frwds to you experienced guys showing a few of the steps/methods for doing this......  regards...     Kerry   

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #29 on: January 26, 2012, 03:42:49 PM »
Kerry,

Right about the square in forging.  Not that the piece is forged fully square with sharp corners and all.  On an anvil the top/bottom flats are naturally parallel as long as you are hitting square to the anvil face.  The next pair of flats are at 90 degrees from the first pair.  This is very easy to judge by eyeball, but can be checked with a square.  Now you have the square but the corners are just no where near sharp.  The last two pair of flats to complete the octagon are a little more difficult to judge the proper angle.  Actually I use a lighter hammer for the final two pair of flats.  In truth, sometimes I have this done by a real master blacksmith, Jymm Hoffman, who uses a trip hammer to make the octagon look really splendid.

Danny,

This red short thing sounds like a disaster.  I have never experienced this, and I hope I never do!

I probably will not be able to post much more on this site as I am leaving the USA tomorrow for four month in Africa.  Thanks to you all.

Jim Everett

Offline Ian Pratt

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 580
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #30 on: January 26, 2012, 05:02:29 PM »
 Hey Danny / anybody else who may be interested -  The term "Red short" does not refer to something that you do to iron while working it, it actually describes a type of iron, or I guess more accurately the composition of a type of iron. It has a high sulfur content. What happens with red short iron is that it will tend to be brittle at working heat and will come apart at the slag inclusions, even if the material is worked properly in regard to grain orientation. We sometimes also call it "hot short iron". Unless you get a piece that is really evil you can often forge weld the cracks shut as you work.
  Another condition described as "cold short" describes an iron which is high in phosphorus. Cold short iron works just fine at working heat, but tends to come apart on you when worked cold, as in making cold bends, and can also be very brittle at cold temps. Imagine driving a spike with a big hammer and the thing shatters, or prying with a bar that snaps, that would be cold short.
  Good quality iron can be rough forged at a good high heat without cracking or opening up except perhaps when making extreme changes/ bends etc, then also can be hammered at lower finishing heats without damaging it.   
    
« Last Edit: January 26, 2012, 05:05:04 PM by I.Pratt »

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #31 on: January 26, 2012, 05:31:05 PM »
Jim,
What are you going to Africa for? Oil maybe?

I once went to Ghana many years ago, and it was like stepping back a couple centuries in time!
Good luck, stay safe,
John
John Robbins

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2012, 05:56:55 PM »
John,

My wife, Drew, and I have been working in Uganda, East Africa, as part time Christian missionaries for the past 12 years.  We will be about one hour drive West of Kampala until the end of May.  Sorry, no oil (also no electricity or running water)

Jim Everett

Offline bob hertrich

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 139
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #33 on: January 26, 2012, 06:07:33 PM »
Very interesting stuff. Why were the barrels swamped and how did they accomplish that?

Offline James Wilson Everett

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #34 on: January 26, 2012, 06:20:00 PM »
Guys,

Another very good question, often asked, but without a clear answer.  A tapered octagon or a tapered octagon to round will have good strength at the breech where the pressure is highest and a lighter weight at the muzzle for better balance.  I am sure you have noted how nose heavy a straight barrel can be.  But why the flair (or is it a flare?) at the muzzle end.  The only answer I can think of is just for beauty, a straight barrel looks fat or pregnant in the middle (at least to my eyes) while the tapered and flared (flaired?) barrels look beautiful.  Any other answers out there.

Just as a way off topic, here is our village blacksmith in Bugongi village, Busheyni district.  This is his blower, hand crank at the top, a squirrel cage blower at the bottom and a nozzle (tuyere) into a mound of charcoal on the ground.  You work while squatting with a rock for an anvil.

Jim Everett



Offline chris laubach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
  • Marietta, Pa
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #35 on: January 26, 2012, 07:29:31 PM »
The Octagon shape "may" eliminate a forging step for the production worker. How this applies to barrel forging I am not too sure, but I sure would love to try it (forging bbls)at some point. I look frwds to you experienced guys showing a few of the steps/methods for doing this......  regards...     Kerry   

Kerry,
There is a Video by American Pioneer Video that shows the process of forging a gun barrel from a flat piece of iron (skelp) to hammering the flats on the barrel and also how to forge the breech pin and forging a reamer.

www.americanpioneervideo.com


Chris Laubach

Offline chris laubach

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 275
  • Marietta, Pa
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #36 on: January 26, 2012, 07:36:25 PM »
Very interesting stuff. Why were the barrels swamped and how did they accomplish that?


One way this is accomplished is by tapering your skelp, both in thickness and in width and than once you have completely welded the tube/barrel you "jump" the muzzle on the anvil to flair the muzzle.



Chris Laubach

Offline tim crowe

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 196
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #37 on: January 26, 2012, 09:34:10 PM »
James
I have enjoyed your postings. Very informative and thought provoking . Enjoy your time in the Bush.

So I don't get this thread off topic. Drop me a email and we can chat my parents were missionaries in South America . We also had country blacksmiths.

Tim

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #38 on: January 26, 2012, 10:42:09 PM »
Perhaps the flare at the muzzle was to bring the front sight up closer to a line parallel with the bore??
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

dannybb55

  • Guest
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #39 on: January 27, 2012, 03:01:04 AM »
Maybe it is easier to draw file a sweeping curve than a flat plane 8 times. ;)
« Last Edit: January 27, 2012, 03:05:16 AM by dannybb55 »

dannybb55

  • Guest
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #40 on: January 27, 2012, 03:04:55 AM »
Jim
 I had a champion blower like that in cast iron but very similar. The iron age has been in Africa so long that they must have amazing traditions in forms/ patterns.
                                                                       Danny

Offline Eric Smith

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 775
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #41 on: January 27, 2012, 03:15:08 AM »
Perhaps the flare at the muzzle was to bring the front sight up closer to a line parallel with the bore??

Sounds logical to me.
Eric Smith

Offline KNeilson

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 330
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #42 on: January 27, 2012, 07:41:15 AM »
Jim, thx for the reply, On barrel shape,I feel I am not experienced enough to constructively argue the point of shape. Atm I would tend to agree that appearance would have more to do with it than function.  I wish you good luck and safety on your trip. Interesting pic btw,makes me thankfull for my working conditions! I would have thought bellows easier to construct rather than that fellows fan/blower setup.
Chris, thx for the tip on the video, looks like just what I want. I`ll have it on order soon... 
regards       Kerry

omark

  • Guest
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #43 on: January 27, 2012, 11:42:02 PM »
i was told/read that barrels were flared to keep the frnt sight lower to avoid breakage/bending. i certainly cant argue one way or the other.    mark

Offline Karl Kunkel

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 977
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #44 on: January 28, 2012, 05:50:36 AM »
Swamped barrels have width at the breech for strength, taper in the middle for weight reduction, flare again at the muzzle for balance.  The sights sit on the same plane and the barrel balances better.  I believe it was more function than asthetic. But they sure are nice looking too.
Kunk

Offline FL-Flintlock

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2176
    • Fire & Iron Mfg.
Re: Purpose of octagon barrels?
« Reply #45 on: January 28, 2012, 07:58:00 AM »
Just an observation but one will note that from a few feet away, the measured transition points typical to swamped barrels according to their overall length create the aesthetic effect, much the same as a chalice, that falls within the golden mean ratio no matter if viewed from the side or end.
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.