Author Topic: Deer tallow lube  (Read 17600 times)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #25 on: December 09, 2008, 10:06:24 AM »
TOF - you are A rather amusing individual - as to fouling, as always, I was referring to the buildup of fouling in the bore, which some fellows seem to be troubled with.  Of course, there is fouling in the bore after the shot- which is caused by some of the 56 or 57% of the residual fouling after firing off a shot, which as we've tried to explain over and over again, is wiped down when loading the next shot so there is no buildup from shot to shot. Actually, Ned Roberts spoke of this in The Muzzleloading Caplock Rifle. We merely found out what lubes worked as he described - never looked back - never troubled with building fouling- it doens't happen if the ball and patch combo is correct - lubes range from spit to various concoctions.
 What we all cannot understand, is why some of you, obviously, yourself included, have to wipe between shots or even after 2, 5 , 10 or 20 shots due to a buildup of this fouling in the bore.   Our, and I'm probably speaking of at least the 150 people shoot at Hefley Creek  bores don't accumulate fouling.  A bore that does accumulate fouoling is either very rough with pits, etc, or is not being loaded so as to prevent continual loading.  Try it, you might like it instead of being stuck with fouling buildup.

Your statement about Guiness is interesting - I guess the 150 shooters on the line at the Hefley Rendezvous all need to apply as no one there has a problem with fouling buildup either - it just doesn't happen.  Since it is obvious this seems to be happening with your guns, you apparently to fail to 'grasp' what we've been attempting to explain - hense the continual repeating of our process of loading.  We do it in an attempt to help you understand that loading this way prevents the buildup of fouling to the point our guns appear not to foul.  We've shown and explained as best we can, even did a video some time ago with Taylor loading his rifle after probably 50 shots with easy loading, no hammering.   If you want to be blessed with fouing buildup - there is nothing else we can do.  Reminds me of a the horse and water limrick.
 Are you a member of the Flat Earth Society? - just curious.

Fouling in the bore can be related to a number of things. Not the least of which is climate.
I grew up in Iowa and at 90% or so humidity fouling stays pretty soft will actually liquify and cause ignition problems. In Montana at 100 degrees and maybe 15% humidity or low temp low humidity the fouling can build up in the bore. It will cake on the lands hard enough that a dry bronze brush will not completely remove it.
Water based lubes perhaps eliminate this, but I don't use them for reasons I have enumerated  before.
I view my rifles as hunting arms and I always use them with this in mind. I load just the same for shooting targets as I do for hunting.

I can assure you that unless you blow in the barrel with the GOEX/GOI of years back (have not used the current stuff) that a 54 with 100 grs of powder using an oiled patch or other traditional lube can be very difficult to load after 2-5 shots when the humidity is low. Swiss is better and my 16 bore will allow quite a bit of shooting with an oiled patch and Swss. But the 54 with a greased patch off the shelf SPG bullet lube in this case, will cake up  even with FFFG Swiss.

In greases the best stuff I ever used was Sperm Whale oil and beeswax. Its better than straight oil IIRC (its been 25 years or more). I have enough oil the make some up guess I should. But grease is harder to use than oil.

I don't recall Ned Roberts mentioning  water based lubes but would need to read again.. He used oils as I recall (bear and Sperm Whale). Neatsfoot, Bears or Sperm Whale oil will all give hard loading in dry conditions even after one shot. I have used them all. In hot weather none are good for more than a few shots unless moisture is introduced (blowing).
Cline used spit a lot IIRC. But I do not consider him in the same league with Roberts. Cline was mostly shooting. Roberts actually used MLs as his primary hunting arm in his younger days.
I do feel that wide (2-4 time the lands) shallow grooves shoot cleaner than deep narrower grooves. I think that this is why the 16 bore will load easier than my other rifles.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Seven

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #26 on: December 09, 2008, 02:29:07 PM »
Daryl, I loaded up a CVA spare load tube (a roughly three inch plastic tube with caps on the ends for "speed loading" muzzle loaders) with a small charge of powder (roughly 40 grains) a wet patch of LHV and a round ball.  Packed them pretty tight to simulate being loaded in a barrel.  I let them sit for about a day.  When I dumped the contents out in the front yard walkway there was a layer of powder that was all stuck together.  I used a bar b que lighter (with the long lighter extension) to touch it all off.  The bottom of the charge (that wasn't touching the patch) went up just fine.  The top part didn't, at all.  Even while holding the flame of the lighter to it for a while.  -chad

Daryl

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #27 on: December 09, 2008, 07:53:26 PM »
I understand and agree with what Dan has noted above.  Humidity has a lot to do with how the fouling builds or wants to.  here, we will have humidity from the high 90's to low 30's even in the same day.  Just last Sunday, there were 3 of us on the range, walking the trail in about 1 1/2 feet of snow- sure wish I'd taken the misery slippers.  Luckily the snow wasn't as bad in the tight bush where the trail is, but getting there from the club-house was another thing.

  When we started off shooting, the fouling in the pan and on the barrel was black and wet due to the high humidity, but 2 hours later, the fouling in and around the pan and on the barrel was as white as the snow as the humidity had dropped to the 40's.  Hatchet Jack & I were using LHV, while friend Len used a concoction of windshield antifreeze, alcohol and some other ingredient. None of us experienced any change in loading from the get-go to the end of our shooting.  No one had to wipe the bore once, nor did we notice the humidity change other than the colour of the fouling.

  Our normal routine, is to walk up to the 'stake', prime & take the shot.  We then step back to allow the next person to shoot while we watch the shot and reload. After all have shot, we advance to the next stake with a loaded rifle or smoothbore but unprimed pan, step up to the line in turn, prime and shoot. Out of 50 shots at ranges from 20' for playing cards, to various gongs out to 104 yards, I think I missed 3 targets.  I hate trying to split cards. Lack of wiping didn't seem to hurt my score as it's the best I've shot in a long time.  My shooting improved due to changing the breech system in my rifle to a solid tang, from a hokey stud projection on the tang fitting into a socket bolt for the actual plug, but that's another story.

 As to Seven's test, how much of the charge didn't ignite, % wise.  In Taylor's test in an actual steel barrel, loaded and left outdoors for 5 days, there was perhaps 2gr.(maybe less) of powder that had stuck to the patch. The rest poured out normal powder. The powder stuck to the patch wasn't wet due to drying somewhat- apparently.  Perhaps the rest of the powder absorbed some of the 'moisture' from the LHV, however it was dry and flowed as normal. His test was to determine whether or not the LHV would protect the bore from the muzzle to the charge and whether the LHV would cause rust to build where it sat underneath the ball.  The test appeared to be conclusive as the humidity ran from 100% to about 30% during the 5 days of the test, and from temps of 4C to -15C. No rust and no fouled powder which was a happy finding.

 When I hunted the late special weapons moose season, in temps ranging from 3F to -56C (about 40F to -65F), I needed a lube that wouldn't become too stiff to load (ball punches through the patch at the muzzle) and would allow 2 or 3  ACCURATE shots without having to wipe.  I ended up, after a few years of different substance trials to using Mink Oil as sold by Track and paper ctgs.  The previous year, I used baby oil which allowed up to 2 shots, reloading getting crunchy for the second shot, then it needed wiping.  If you need a fast second or maybe even third shot, you don't want to have to wipe the bore.   Now I hear,  "I" only need one shot!  Well, if you have to shoot through a sea of willows, or aspen branches - there is never an open shotoing lane - sometimes you need more than one shot.  What do you wipe a barrel that's minus 40 degrees with, to soften the fouling? I ended up testing and becoming to like paper ctgs. as in the big bore, they gave identical accuracy to a patched round ball, yet were easy to load for up to 10 shots.  Mink oil lubed patches allowed 3 or 4 shots before wiping was necessary. Although the patches were pretty stiff in the bag, as soon as you touched them, they became soft and loaded just fine.  The humidity at -40F is very low - in the 20's I'd estimate.  I suspect that particular hunt at -65F, it could have been even dryer. Yeah, it was a mite fresh.
 

Seven

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #28 on: December 09, 2008, 09:15:15 PM »
Daryl, I'll see if I can repeat the test with the powder.  Might even be able to take some pictures.  Although my picture taking ability is horrible, but that's another topic all together. 

Daryl

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #29 on: December 09, 2008, 11:35:44 PM »
Sounds like a test - although there has to be a diference between shoving a lubed patch with ball into a plastic tube and loading it into a barrel where the overall combination is at least .020" larger than the bore (top of the lands) on each side.  I doubt the plastic would stand the strain of identical loading stresses. Possibly, there would be less lube contact with the powder in your method due to Taylor's snug ball/patch combo possibly squeezing the lube beneath the ball + some from the sides into a liquid layer beneath the ball and therefore touching the powder. Hmmmmm - don't know - one way or the other could be possible I suppose.

  Upon thinking of this, I guess I'll go back to a barrier between the powder and the ball for hunting - back to thin cards (about .010" to .020") as they don't hurt accuracy as much as the thicker felt wad in my .45. The .69 was not hurt by barrier wads at all. I assume it's different gun to gun. 

Seven

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #30 on: December 10, 2008, 04:44:03 PM »
Here you go Daryl,  a repeat of results.  Almost even scientific  ;).  I used roughly 50 grains of ffg Goex, a .535 patched round ball with a .022 patch and LHV lube.  The patch was very wet but not dripping.  I actually squeezed it tightly to get out a lot of the extra lube before loading it in the tube.  It was left in the tube about nine hours.  You can see the results in the following pictures.

This is the result straight out of the loader.  You can see the plug of effected powder. 


Here is the result after lighting off the loose powder.  Notice that some of the plug did also light up, but not all of it.


Here I am placing the flame directly on the plug of powder.  Notice some of the chared ends, but no ignition!


When I use a dry patch between the powder and the patched round ball the powder does not seem to be effected.  All of it seems to be loose and fine.

-Chad

Daryl

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Re: Deer tallow lube
« Reply #31 on: December 10, 2008, 06:14:27 PM »
Appears you need that wad.