carving info

[billm]

I dont know where I saw it ,I thought it was on this site but I cant find a chart for the gouges needed to form scrolls any ideas about a chart?
Bill

[The other DWS]

Most of the gouge and carving tool vendors have charts that show the curves formed by their tools.
  I think most, especially the european/american ones are pretty standardized--not sure about the asian ones.  If one is using the gouges to do an initial "stab-in" on stock embellishments a chart of curves can be used to plot which tool is needed to cut-in the major portion of the curves on the design.
   I have thought of using a laser-printer to reproduce the MFG chart onto a clear plastic sheet for convenience sake.
  Or one can simply match the tools up to the proposed design drawn on paper or transferred to the wood.

[Acer Saccharum]

Or use a narrow straight chisel, and step your way around the curves.


?



I really hesitate to advise anyone to go out and buy a whole set of curved gouges to make all the curves you want to stab in. You end up with thousands of dollars of tools, a job which can really be done with handful of tools.... just this is a pet peeve of mine.



Why is this a pet peeve? Because I have drawers full of tools I bought and now I don't use them. Hahahahaha.



Tom

[eddillon]

Nothing wrong with using an Xacto set.  I have used the pointed blade that I skinnied down on a hard arkansas stone with good results.
Ed

[Waksupi]

I use a skew chisel, and push it around the curves with my thumb. I see no need for all of the curved chisels.

[KLMoors]

I've been using a Flexcut V-tool lately and that has been working well for cutting out the design. I think it is the 1/4 inch 70 degree one if I remember correctly.  I switch to the exacto for really tight spots.

[Tom Currie]

Pfeil chisel 3F/6  . Small fish tail gouge . Probably the most used of my 19 Pfeil chisels.

[Karl Kunkel]

Bill,

Go back to the ALR Main Page, click on Gun Building, then select Sharpening along the left side menu, scroll down to Carving Gouges, this section shows a golden mean volute broken down by the numbered gouges.

[Jim Kibler]

The subject of carving methods has been brought up in this thread.  This has been discussed many times here.  There are several techniques that can be effective in outlining carving.  Each particular method tends to shine with certain carving styles or in certain situations.  Some methods require more tools than others.  Some techniques require more skill than others.  It pays to be at least a little open minded when it comes to this stuff.  Also, with this and any other subject for that matter, look towards good work, past or present, understand the techniques used and try to work in this manner.  To think that the method of your choice is all that is worth considering, is not being very realistic, especially given the huge range of stock carving styles used over time.

[t.caster]

I'm with Tom Currie & others who are just saying you can go buy all these fancy, expensive (prestegious) things....but you don't need to. The simple, inexpensive and homemade things oftentimes work out just fine for you. But everyones needs are different.

I use a 1.5mm veiner and/or an exacto knife to cut in/out almost all my carving. But that's just me   Time and experience will tell you what works best for you.

[P.W.Berkuta]

The subject of carving methods has been brought up in this thread.  This has been discussed many times here.  There are several techniques that can be effective in outlining carving.  Each particular method tends to shine with certain carving styles or in certain situations.  Some methods require more tools than others.  Some techniques require more skill than others.  It pays to be at least a little open minded when it comes to this stuff.  Also, with this and any other subject for that matter, look towards good work, past or present, understand the techniques used and try to work in this manner.  To think that the method of your choice is all that is worth considering, is not being very realistic, especially given the huge range of stock carving styles used over time.

Jim have you tested any of the Chinese chisels you purchased on E-Bay?

[Jim Kibler]

I tried to explain in a careful and nice manner that a narrow view of carving techniques is not very wise.  Yes some styles of carving can be performed with few tools.  For example using a parting tool for carving outline.  For this style of carving, purchasing a wide range of gouges for stab-in is not necessary.  As I tried to explain in my previous post, there are other styles of carving where outlining with a one tool (parting tool, knife, small stab in tool) is not a good choice.  It is misleading and a simplistic view to say all that is necessary is one particular tool or approach.  Further it can often be seen in results of those who employ such a mindset.  I realize everybody is proud of what they accomplish and we all have an ego, but come on, widen your view of things.  If they seem simple and straightforward it is probably because your knowledge base is not too wide.  In those cases, it's good to recoginize it and perhaps reserve comment.  Sorry for being blunt, but I don't know any other way at this point.


P.W.Berkuta,

I sharpened one up and played with it a bit and it seems to perform well.  A friend is making handles for them and after this I will clean them up and sharpen them.  I would like to have them available for use at the carving class I'll be teaching at WKU in June.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Jim, thanks for your thoughts. I am not entirely in agreement, however, because fairly complex carvings can be done with a very limited set of tools. I might use six at most, for this style carving.

I believe original work was done differently in that more stabbing and a wider selection of tools were at hand. Just guessing. The pro's are all about speed.  With my technique, I will never make a good hourly rate.

[Jim Kibler]

Your tang carving is very nice, Tom.  I must say, though, this is a style of carving where stabbing in can't be beat in my view.  Yes, it can be done faster, but it can also be done easier without as much care and I beleive this method will create crisper cleaner work in designs such as this.  With enough time, attention and care, an entire rifle could be made with just a few tools, but with a wider selection, efficiency and superior results can be obtained.  There is a reason the stab-in technique has been widely considered the profesional approach to carving, in regards to more complex, European styled work such as this.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

I won't argue with you, there Jim. I appreciate that a master carver would take a different approach than I would have on carving like this. I am not trained, and don't have a century of skills being passed on to me; I do what I can, in the way I can. I am not making excuses, I am simply trying to state that you can indeed make carvings with simpler tool sets. Certainly my above designs could be cut in faster AND cleaner with the proper stab tools, gouges and training (and practice!).

Tom

[J. Talbert]

Tom,

I salute you for your result using the veiner (V-gouge) method to outline your pattern.  My experience (limited as it is), is that my confidence and my results took a big leap forward when I began using the stabbing in method.  Try as I might, I always seemed to end up with tear-outs and elbows in my curves with the veiner.
My opinion is that it is easier to get smoother, more graceful curves with the stabbing method, as opposed to using a veiner or knife to cut in the pattern.

As for all the gouges needed to match all the curves... Gary Brumfield shows on his website how the stabbing in can be done with one simple little tool that is walked around the pattern.

Jeff

[Acer Saccharum]

There is a big difference between laying a pre-designed pattern down on the stock, and making the design up as you go.

With stabbing, you MUST have your plan laid out on paper ahead of time, you MUST locate it on the stock correctly. You have one shot at this. once the lines are stabbed in, they cannot be changed (unless you stab very shallow).

In my work, I make it up as I go along, based loosely on a sketch. Since the curves are not stabbed in, I can always make them smaller, change the curvature a bit, etc. This method will take longer than the stabbing method, but it works for me.

If I took the time to plan out my carving, I think I could stab it in. But I don't work that way; I work on the fly. I make one of a kind things, and don't like to use the same pattern again, make two of the same things, etc.

This is not to say that one method is better than another, no indeed. It's that everyone must find a way that works for them.

Blah, blah, blah.

T

[flintriflesmith]

With stabbing, you MUST have your plan laid out on paper ahead of time, you MUST locate it on the stock correctly. You have one shot at this. once the lines are stabbed in, they cannot be changed (unless you stab very shallow).
T

I'm puzzled by the idea that the design for stamped in carving must be drawn on paper and then transferred. I draw the design directly on the stock and only stamp it in once I'm satisfied with it. I know it works for others as well because I've taught that technique in lots of classes.

I'm I reading your post correctly that you make a paper sketch then carve the stock without any layout of even the basic elements on the wood?
Gary

[Acer Saccharum]

Gary, I was indeed thinking paper patterns, pattern books, sketch books, etc, for repeated carvings of the same design. For short runs of a particular stocking and carving.

I too, draw directly on the stock, but I find myself always tweaking my design. Sometimes it looks good in pencil, but as carved, it can look too heavy, or the curve not smooth enough. I end up paring down the width big c-scroll, as an example. If that were stabbed in initially, the profile would be fixed.

One could counter that with a properly drawn design, I would not be having these issues.

I can't argue with that.

Hahahaha.

Tom

[Jim Kibler]

First let me apologize for being a bit terse in my previous posts.  I should be more patient. 

Anyways, back to the questions at hand.  As far as stabbing in requiring a very exact drawing, I don't think this is always the case.  As experience is gained, a person can work with rougher drawings and still get good results.  The combinations of gouge sweeps define the shape and done properly, create pleasing contours and designs.  It is true that once the design is stabbed in, there is not a great deal of room for adjustment.  Some modification can be made by beveling the carving edge as the design is often defined to the eye by the top corner.  I guess the point of this is that in practice, stabbing in isn't as strict and confining as it may initially seem.

With this said, I would like to reinforce what I said in previous posts.  There are several methods for outlining carving.  Each has their good points and drawbacks.  With this being the case, each is good in particular circumstances and for certain styles of carving.  For example, the use of a parting tool for outlining carving is particularly appropriate when building Lehigh Valley styled longrifles as this is the method generally used and therefore creates results in keeping with original work .  Stabbing in excels when the carving is more intricate, higher, and of a more European flavor.  The use of a knife is quite versital, but few have the ability to control it well.  These methods can be used in situations that are not ideal, but there is often a better alternative.  A long list of the pros and cons of each method or the styles of caring one method is best for could be made, but I think you get the point.

On a general note, the more you learn about a subject the more you realize it's often not a simple as you once thought.  It pays to be open minded.  We may have success with certain approaches and techniques, but it seems best to not shut down at the point, but rather try to keep learning.

Jim

[Acer Saccharum]

Well said, Jim. That is a very lucid appraisal of the different methods for the styles of carving. Agreed: the more you learn the more you realize how little you know.

Tom