J. Kuntz and North Carolina possibly Isaac Ribelin

[Shreckmeister]

Kuntz



 
North Carolina

[Eric Kettenburg]

Why are you calling that a Kuntz?

[mbriggs]

The second rifle is a Rowan School North Carolina Longrifle.  I am not sure that is by Isaac Ribelin since it is not signed and the Eagle brothers and Leonard Nash all used the same architecture.  It is a very nice rifle, thanks for posting it.  Is it yours?  Does it have any initials engraved on the patchbox lid?



Michael

[Shreckmeister]

Im told its signed j kuntz...neither are mine..just thought u mite like to c them

[Eric Kettenburg]

I am positive I've seen that first rifle somewhere, and/or another just like it.  Now that I think about it, I think there is an even more elaborate one of the same design floating around as well - I think someone might has it for sale right now.  One thing I do know - none of them were signed, at least not when I viewed them.

Going to have to check my photo "archives" because I think I have more detailed pictures of this one somewhere.

Maybe I'm having a senile moment.

[woodsrunner]

Please point out to me why this will be a Rowan County Rifle? I'm not up to speed on this, and I wonder.....

I have a contemporary Rowan County Rifle made for me by David Dodds from plans documented by Ron Borron, and other than the trigger guard I see no similarities 

[Tom Currie]

I'd have to say that first rifle is quite a bit more folksy than any J Kuntz rifle I have seen. Kuntz's carving is quite a bit more refined .

[Eric Kettenburg]

I should interject a moment to say thanks for posting these, as they're both really neat rifles!

[Mark Tyler]

Thanks for posting these Rob.

[G-Man]

Woodsrunner - the drawings you are speaking of were taken from an iron mounted flint rifle that Robin Hale found in the 1960s or 70s in Tennessee.  There has long been discussion regarding where/when that rifle was made - it might be a piedmont North Carolina iron mounted gun (which could include Rowan County) or from somehwere farther west into the Appalachians - SW Virgnia or Tennessee, etc..  We really don't know.  It has a number of features that look to me like it could possibly be a North Carolina rifle, and Myron always thought it was a Rowan gun based in part on the way the arrangement of the triggerplate and forward guard finial.  But it does not exhbit strong enough regional characteristics to make its origin jump out to the observer.  It is a great iron mounted rifle however and has long been one of my favorites.  I believe it has been posted on here in the past, and might even be in the virtual museum.  

The rifle shown in the current posting has definitive architecture (note the straight, high crisp comb and with a long curving wrist); incised molding under the comb, the flowing organic "Christmas Tree" patchbox shape, and the turned down pointed finials on the lock panels - that point to the group of Rowan County gunmakers Michael referred to.  From what I can see the rifle has a somewhat elongated tang and the triggerguard profile looks to be classic for this "school" as well.  Many of these rifles also have very distinctive double set triggers, but these are more subtle on this example.  As Mr. Briggs said it is a nice example.

The iron mounted rifle you originally spoke of is a super example regardless of where exactly it was made.  Myron Carlson copied the hardware and triggers for it many years ago and I have always liked it.  I have seen your Dodd's gun and it is superb as well!

 

Guy

[mbriggs]

Woodsrunner,
Guy is correct.  The group of rifles we refer to as the Rowan School were mostly made by Isaac Ribelin, George Eagle, John Eagle and Leonard Nash.  Many of them are dated, the earliest being 1827 and most being in the mid 1830's.

The shape of the stock of the rifle that Rob posted fits that group.  The double incised carved line along the comb is matched by a double incised carved line up the bottom of the butt-stock that goes around the front of the trigger guard and returns around the other side.  Also of note is the scooped out cheekrest.  The one commonly found feature I do not see on this rifle is chip carving in front of the butt plate.

The patchbox is not the normal elongated Christmas tree type found on the Ribelin, Eagle and Nash rifles, but is similar to the earlier Bruner rifles from the same County. This rifle also does not have the fancy triggers you usually find as Guy pointed out.

To sum up, it is a very nice rifle and I would enjoy seeing more photos of it. Rob, does this rifle have any fore-stock molding?  I also would like to see a photo of the nose cap as they are usually distinctive too.

Thanks,

Michael  

[G-Man]

One thing to keep in mind with regard to styles/schools that are defined by counties.  A lot of these are based on a predominant style of rife that was made in a certain area, or the earliest one identified by the collectors who first sorted out what regional characteristics placed it with a certain gunsmith in that geographic area.  But county lines change over time, and also are not as important as where where and whom with a gunmaker trained.  So within any given county, there can be some pretty diverse styles of rifles that were produced.  Take a look at the folky plain guns by the Harpers and compare them to some of the Kennedy rifles being produced nearby in Moore County as an example.  Very different, but made in the same area.  


The group of gunsmiths that Michael referred to certainly made some beautiful rifles with crisp distinctive arcthitecture - among my favorites.   

Guy

[Shreckmeister]

Wish I had more pictures to share on these.  I'm enjoying learning about them.  I'm told that Ron
Gabel published pictures of another Kuntz rifle with a very similar patchbox.  Early Kuntz work.

[L Meadows]

I'm new to flintlocks,as in real green as the old folks say,but that Carolina gun is stunning!!!!That patina and the stock finish are something to behold.OK,OK I will settle down,this site continues to amaze me,and what i like most is the discussion of the rifles without the usual fighting that goes on with forums.I say keep up the good work so this green wanna be can learn.

[rich pierce]

Wish I had more pictures to share on these.  I'm enjoying learning about them.  I'm told that Ron
Gabel published pictures of another Kuntz rifle with a very similar patchbox.  Early Kuntz work.

Could easily be a restock of a Kuntz barrel.  The rest of the gun doesn't seem to share much with known Kuntz rifles I've seen.

[Mark Tyler]

Rob, do you have any more information on the NC rifle? I'd like to see more photos. From the photos you posted, the condition appears excellent - almost unfired! Has the frizzen been relined? I like the stock color.

[Shreckmeister]

Sorry Mark,  These are the only photos I have.

[Eric Kettenburg]

It took me a day or two but now I remember this one.  Someone sent me the *exact* same photos of that funky folk art gun a few years ago, said it turned up in FL and was supposed to be an early Moll (that's what I was told).  Which it very likely is not.  The person who sent me the photos was trying to buy it - again, that's the story I was given.  I was also told it was not signed.  You know what finally jogged my memory?  I remember that shoe.  Took me a bit but I found the same photos.  This gun fits into a category of somewhat funky Lehigh-area guns which as yet are unidentified; there are a few of them 'out there', all unsigned.

There is another one for sale (or did, as of maybe 6 months ago) much fancier than this but of almost identical style.  It also looks practically new - it was displayed at the KRA show a few years ago where it generated a LOT of controversy and a LOT of after-hours discussion, not just due to the design (which is def. over the top) but because of other things.  I'll see about posting some pics as I have a bunch of them.