Re: Loading of round ball in a smoothbore

[LynnC]

(Note - This thread has been split off, again, from the historic thread and now focuses on modern methods)


From the previous thread - Just a thought but unless in battle or perhaps a hurried second shot at game, speed of loading really is not an issue.  Not much different than loading a rifle speed wise anyway.

I would agree that the natives used what was at hand or what they believed to be most effective.....Lynn

[Vomitus]

  Lynn,
   Let me stray a little off target.(like I do lots with my SB,LOL). Here in Western Canada we have many smoothbore shooters and at our BIG rondy,the competition is fierce! In British Columbia there are probably 40 shooters that shoot nothing but a smoothie all the time.One of our Provincial clubs puts on a Traditional Traitgun/fowler competition where lots of rifle shooters dig out their smoothguns and come out to play. That brings about 70 to 80 shooters out for this fun trailwalk.
  I would personally like to invite all smoothbore shooters(riflemen too) to a ten day rendezvous on the last week of August thru the first week of September at Heffley Creek,B.C. Camp in primitive or tin,25 bucks per carload(cheap).Lots of water and wood. The guarantee,lots of shooting,lots of fun!.Join us!
(no pistols for the US folks,they are verboten with customs,.)
Lynn, sorry for jacking your thread, well,just a little.
bcrendezvous.com\

[northmn]

When running buffalo the runner would often put ball in his mouth and charge the weapon from the horn and spit the ball into the bore.  The ball would be seated by smacking the butt on the saddle.  Probably as unsafe as it sounds as there were claims of burst barrels and split lips from trying to spit a ball into a bore off of hoerseback.  This was rapid loading for very close range.  For a weapon that would be left loaded a over powder wad holding the powder in place would permit one to use any projectile combo desired for the day.  As stated it would take only a simple removal of an OS wad and letting the ball or shot roll out the bore to be replaced.  A round ball would stay seated on a firearm left stting up or even hanging the correct way.  They left their guns loaded for some time.

DP

[Pete G.]

I suppose that I have never understood the logicic of trying to make a smoothie shoot like a rifle. If you want your gun to shoot like a rifle then use a rifle to begin with.

[LynnC]

Theoreticaly we are talkin about historic SB ball loads where a SB might be all that is available.  No it aint gonna group like a rifle.  Just exploring the past

[omark]

also dont see anything wrong with trying to get the best out of what ya got.    mark

[Daryl]

Mark- which is why we all use cloth patched round balls in our smoothbores.

I strongly admit that I need to do more, probably a lot more experimentation with my choked 20 bore as it's accuracy down range with round balls is pitiful.   At 25 yards, from a rest, I can make a lovely 1" 5 shot group, quite easily & virtually every time. 

At 50 yards, the groups are horrible - well over 5" for most of them, with fliers outboard of that and out of 10 consecutive shots, perhaps not more than 6 or 7 on a standard 11"X8" page target.  It's horrible. This innacuracy might be due merely to the choke, I don't know. It's only saving grace, is the virtually Modified patterns with shot - lovely.

Some time ago, a couple summers past, at least, I sat at a bench and made a nice 3" group with a friend's 20 bore smoothie, single front sight, no rear sight and what I'd call normal loading, that being a .600" ball and a .020" patch along with 82gr. 2F powder. In that group, 3 of the 5 were cutting, so it was an honest 3" group, on centres.

So - I know a smoothbore, if properly loaded, can shoot into 3" at 50yards for 5 consecutive shots - all I have to do is to discover what the load has to be, to do that with mine.

[James Rogers]

Two interesting topics here. For sake of clarity maybe it could be split between the present topic and "modern smoothbore accuracy"?
I have one gun I shoot PRB in. I use it for hunting on my property. It has a colerain 44" thick walled barrel. Of course most all the "fowler" barrels are too thick these days. Probably designed with PRB in mind.
This gun patterns good but should have a rear sight if all I al going to do is shoot PRB. On second thought I probably should use one of my rifles for that.

[Daryl]

Good idea James- this is now the split topic - loading round balls in a smoothie.  As LB noted, there are contests up here just for this, not only here but most of the larger 'shoots' have a smoothbore match.

I even put up a category on the chunk shoot for them, but might just re-arrange things next year, like paying 4 places of winners, and only having mens, womens and juniors - no smoothbore.  None of the smoothbore shooters hit the paper with more than 1/2 the reqisite balls, ie: 5 out of 10 was the high score and only one of those out of 3 only shooters.  That aspect of it was disappointing. We have so many smoothbores shooters, but only 3 of them had the cahoona's to show up.  They've eliminated smoothbores from the chunk matchm, this coming Hefley due to supporting the match.

[Vomitus]

   Chunk shooting,because it's new, isn't very popular here Daryls. Ever try to shoot a smoothbore prone? It's not a pretty picture. All three shooters took it on the cheek in this match. A perfectly flat area to lay is very important, in my books anyways.

[ddoyle]

Just to 2nd Leatherbelies hijack, that is 25 bucks for a week camping in good company!/ Lot of fun for the kids and the ladies.  I am always working at that time but the pics and first hand stories I hear make me jealous.

have never understood the logicic of trying to make a smoothie shoot like a rifle

Ever killed a moose, goose and a grouse on the same day with the same gun using the same powder and same flint? A  few Round balls, some BB steel substitute and a couple handfuls of #5. a 7.5 pound gun and a fall day. The 'logic' is in the versatility, utility and economy.

Was a time when I couldn't figure out what the logic was in trying to make antiquated technology do what my 300 weatherby could do with less fuss............ Sometimes it is just about fun and challenge.
 

[The other DWS]

Historically speaking it was all about the versatility.  Early on, before game got "shot-out", the eastern woodlands environment made close-range shots more common than not.   shot, ball, and buck'n ball were plenty sufficient for the need.
 
(How many of them actually used a tight fitting patched round ball I don't know.  I know that from my own experience it is easier to load a greased-patch roundball in the field than screw with wadding unless using mil.-style paper ball cartridges. And its far more accurate)

Later as game was reduced and the ancient forests were being cleared, with that implication on deer populations;  the market shifted from beaverskins to deerskins and rifles became more desirable.  That combined with the weight/transportaion economics gave the edge to smaller bore longer range rifles for the over-the-mountin long hunters and the settlers who followed them.  Smoothbores were (and are) still desirable for fowl, smaller game, and more rapid fire/close quarters defense.  (The military considerations of the smoothbore/rifle evolution have some similar but not identical considerations but they have been discussed to death)

Once the frontier moved out from under the eastern woodland canopy into the eastern prairie and onto the western prairie smoothbores remained a important item both for pioneers and the native americans still due to the versatility and speed of reloading (prior to the advent of functional breech-loaders).  Smooth-bore/large bore trade guns were the mainstay of the trade to native americans untill amazingly late; long after rapid firing repeaters had become available as a status symbol/military weapon.
 Rifles had the edge in longer range accuracy as a precision tool where needed, but in terms of numbers were probably well outnumbered by the smoothbore.

  More importantly rifles and riflemen had captured the nation's imagination due to the popular writers of the day.  So we became a "nation of riflemen" rather than a "nation of shotgunners"

[Daryl]

By 1830's through 40's, note is made in "Firearms of the American West" that even in the West, smoothbores were becoming more popular than rifles - especially with the advent of caplock side by sides.  One picture of 'hunters"? at a low cabin showed one's side by side (rifle sights I think) equipped with a bayonette. That was interesting.

Much of the smoothbore popularity had to do with versatility in the use of heavy shot- buck shot for defense, balls for large game and finer shot for birds, of course, just as we envision this would play out from today's perspective.

Also, at that time, the US army was dumping thousands of obsolete flintlock muskets on the market for less than $2.00 each. This was at a time when civilians were flocking West.

[Longknife]

I suppose that I have never understood the logicic of trying to make a smoothie shoot like a rifle. If you want your gun to shoot like a rifle then use a rifle to begin with.

Some people never seem to understand the logic of shooting a muzzle loader either!!!!

[northmn]

I have a 20 bore "smoothrifle" in the process (putting final touches on it like carving and a patchbox).  It has sights and I have shot it as I like to make sure they fit right before final finish, especially in a larger bore.  With sights it can shoot into about 4-5" at 75 yards.  I pay attention to loading and even make sure the parting line is always one direction as the ball does not cast perfectilly round.  I also found that too heavy a patch did no better than one that loads fairly easy.  If one pays a lot of attention to loading a SB is usable at reasonable ranges.  One thing about original smoothbores is that they did not have NMLRA rules and many had rudimentary rear sights.  You see a few on NWTG barrels.  If one looks at economics in early times a SB cost about  1/4 to 1/3 of that of a rifle.  About 5 pounds as compared to 15 to 20 pounds in prerevolutionary times (a typical tradesman made about 25 pounds a month). The differences held until the industrial revolution at least.   Those smoothbores I have used on and off over the years have taken squirrel, grouse and rabbit.   I use rifles on deer but would not hesitate to use the 20 bore smooth rifle in some stands.  As stated, where I can with care get usable groups at 75 yards, I can get clover leafs with a good rifle at the same range.  Also to be useful a smooth bore needs to be a fairly large bore where a careful shot can make do with a very small caliber in a rifle.

DP

[Vomitus]

I suppose that I have never understood the logicic of trying to make a smoothie shoot like a rifle. If you want your gun to shoot like a rifle then use a rifle to begin with.

Some people never seem to understand the logic of shooting a muzzle loader either!!!!

  Not good enough! Logic wants me to shoot better then them jack handled rifles!     In my mind,the single sighted smoothbore is much more challenging then the double sighted rifle and anything I can do to shoot it better,well, that is my goal. They are much like shooting a primitive bow.Doing everything the "same" every time!

[Maven]

Although I understand what Pete G. is saying, why not try to get a smoothbore, rifle, handgun to shoot as accurately as possible, or as Mark put it  "...don't see anything wrong with trying to get the best out of what ya got."
 

[Daryl]

Spot-on, Paul- trouble is, the smoothies can be extremely frustrating to get to shoot well with patched round balls. 

Some people simply cannot stand to have that much fun and sell every one they buy, looking for that ONE Smooth Bore that shoots like a rifle - for them, ay LB?

[Dphariss]

I think the numbers of smoothbores present as in "Firearms of the American West" as time went on was an indicator of the number of people west who did not have to depend on just themselves for food and security.
A clerk in a fort is a far different thing than the guys the live "outside the wire" to resurrect a term from my past.
Many tend to get so involved with the sport and maybe challenge that they tend to overlook that the choice of a firearm for someone leaving St Louis for the Three Forks of the Missouri in 1825 was not considering sport or "challenge" he had to have something that worked.
And another point often missed is that a lot of people that went "outside the wire" did not come back. Poor choices will not help this. The round ball shooting smoothbore of 1825 and apparently for some time after was such that it was pretty much a joke past 50 yards. This is pretty well documented. The bores were not especially standard (even in miitary muskets) so ball fit was iffy.
They did not email England for a proper mould they shot what was available. Rifles came with moulds. I have not found a citation of trade guns etc coming with a mould fit to the bore size.
They shot whatever they could find that fit and I suspect that all too often the fit was pretty loose.
So thinking the modern smoothbore experience is somehow applicable to 1750 or 1820 or 1850 is simply dreaming.
Dan

[Maven]

Spot-on, Paul- trouble is, the smoothies can be extremely frustrating to get to shoot well with patched round balls.  Some people simply cannot stand to have that much fun and sell every one they buy, looking for that ONE Smooth Bore that shoots like a rifle - for them, ay LB?

Daryl,  Don't I know it!  Although accuracy in my trade gun hasn't been nearly as good as my rifles (muzzle loaders, et al.) it has been instructive, and at times frustrating, to try to improve its performance.  Even with the less than rifle like accuracy, I haven't seriously entertained selling it...or wrapping it around a tree.

[The other DWS]

"So thinking the modern smoothbore experience is somehow applicable to 1750 or 1820 or 1850 is simply dreaming." you've got that nailed Dan.

I fear that most of us "time lost souls" and wanna-be frontiersmen (and I include myself)  really have only vague, if any, clues about the reality of 18th and early to mid 19th century life; even those who have spent some time in the bloody thin sharp edge.  for every one who lived to write an account in their old age there were thousands who never made it.
  Doesn't mean we can't make guns as nice, and in many cases better. Doesn't mean we cant shoot'em  as well, and again, maybe better.  Simply we are not on the ragged edge of starvation, with chronic malnutrition, dysentery and internal parasites plaguing us; along with various 2 and 4 legged predators lurking just out of the corner of the eye

[Vomitus]

Some people simply cannot stand to have that much fun and sell every one they buy, looking for that ONE Smooth Bore that shoots like a rifle - for them, ay LB? Grin

 Absolute horseapples! you should rephrase. ...looking for ONE Smoothbore that fits!
  And, if you need know,I'm on 1/2 pay sick benefits so it doesn't hurt to bring in an extra bone or two and spread around some good guns to people that appreciate them. Ya, and I'll continue to buy them. I'm not sure how to take that comment,Daryl?

[Dphariss]

"So thinking the modern smoothbore experience is somehow applicable to 1750 or 1820 or 1850 is simply dreaming." you've got that nailed Dan.

I fear that most of us "time lost souls" and wanna-be frontiersmen (and I include myself)  really have only vague, if any, clues about the reality of 18th and early to mid 19th century life; even those who have spent some time in the bloody thin sharp edge.  for every one who lived to write an account in their old age there were thousands who never made it.
  Doesn't mean we can't make guns as nice, and in many cases better. Doesn't mean we cant shoot'em  as well, and again, maybe better.  Simply we are not on the ragged edge of starvation, with chronic malnutrition, dysentery and internal parasites plaguing us; along with various 2 and 4 legged predators lurking just out of the corner of the eye

The really big hurdle is trying to "get inside their heads" to know WHY they did this or that.
All we have are some very scant writings from the past concerning firearms. Rifles are mentioned in the 1680s in NY. There are new rifle stocked smoothbores, "very small bore" documented to the 1750s.
Some preferred the smoothbore. There were various reasons for this.
This one is very real.
In his declining years my grandfather shot squirrels with a shotgun because he had cataracts.
failing eyesight alone could easily be why Kindig's book and others have so many smooth rifles in them.
But in the end it goes back to the "really big hurdle" mentioned above.
Dan

[Daryl]

Some people simply cannot stand to have that much fun and sell every one they buy, looking for that ONE Smooth Bore that shoots like a rifle - for them, ay LB? Grin

 Absolute horseapples! you should rephrase. ...looking for ONE Smoothbore that fits!
  And, if you need know,I'm on 1/2 pay sick benefits so it doesn't hurt to bring in an extra bone or two and spread around some good guns to people that appreciate them. Ya, and I'll continue to buy them. I'm not sure how to take that comment,Daryl?

Easy - thought I might get a smile from you, sorry for the really negative feelings, LB.  I fixed our post btw, ie: no forward slash in the first box.

[hanshi]

Never having come close to rifle accuracy with my smoothie, I can easily take deer at ranges farther than my average kill with a rifle.  I bought mine with a rear sight which makes it so simple to use - just like using a rifle - for deer, squirrel, turkey, etc.  It is NOT intended to be a true bird gun.  If I were to need an upland fowling piece (which I don't), I'd get a tapered, light barrel gun with only a front sight.  Again, I'm not personally familiar with any deer that was missed (name your gun) due to gun inaccuracy.  The accuracy limit is the shooter.