Author Topic: Longrifle building today  (Read 14296 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Longrifle building today
« on: February 13, 2012, 05:27:10 AM »
What benefits are there today that make the process of  longrifle building easier than in the 18th century?  This subject was touched upon in a previous post.  Thought it might be good to make a list and try to discuss.

Online JPK

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #1 on: February 13, 2012, 05:35:35 AM »
Electric lights are high on my list.
A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

Online smylee grouch

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #2 on: February 13, 2012, 05:47:09 AM »
An asortment of pre-made parts that save us countless hrs. like ready made locks, precarved stocks, factory made wood screws, etc.    Smylee

Offline smallpatch

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #3 on: February 13, 2012, 05:50:39 AM »
The available assortment of wood, parts, that we can just mail order, or order over the internet. The ability to just buy tools, rather than make them.  An assortment that just wasn't available then.
The biggest drawback would be that most of us just don't have a Master to learn under.
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #4 on: February 13, 2012, 06:06:01 AM »
The internet!
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Offline cmac

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #5 on: February 13, 2012, 06:06:58 AM »
The builders today do have the option of "ready made parts". However if you look at the top builders/profit makers most of there building is done primitive to make a more traditional piece. There are of course lights and some power tools used. Knowledge of seeing others work I think would be the largest advantage. We have books computers, shows, etc.....That allow us to hopefully reach a higher standard and at the same time make things easier through point of reference

Offline JDK

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2012, 06:13:35 AM »
Not sure "see others work" is an advantage we have over the of the 18th/19th.  Longrifles and fowlers were practically as common back then as cars are today so I would think they would have seen more of others work than we do today.  The being the local smith was like being the your local car mechanic today I would imagine.
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Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2012, 06:14:13 AM »
And don't forget Federal Express!
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2012, 06:38:56 AM »
This is going good guys.  Thanks :)  Here are few big ones that come to my mind

Electric lighting (previously mentioned)
Investment casting of steel for lock production
Deep hole drilling and modern machining for barrel production

I think without investment casting and modern machining methods for barrel production it would be hard to imagine much longrifle building taking place today.  With these aids and nothing more, longrifle building becomes quite manageable.


Jim

Offline Eric Smith

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #9 on: February 13, 2012, 06:56:10 AM »
And don't forget about history. They didn't have the ROCA 1&2 to observe at leisure. They were to busy making history. Grandpa always said hindsight is 20/20. And he ought to know, he was there.
Eric Smith

Offline B Shipman

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #10 on: February 13, 2012, 08:55:01 AM »
Then again, we have to work in many disiplines, not just one which we may be practiced at.
Imported locks were avalable . casting is not hard if you have the stuff, later commercial barrels. Much trade went on even very early on barrels and locks. Any experienced builder today can tear down a stock pretty quickly using the same basic tools. Precarved stocks save time but are not necessary. Not that much has changed. Some things have been made easier, some harder.

Offline little joe

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #11 on: February 13, 2012, 12:37:29 PM »
Glasses and optics.

Offline James Rogers

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #12 on: February 13, 2012, 01:40:16 PM »
Glasses and optics.

Ditto that one for sure!! I had better than perfect vision all my life. Two things changed in my forties. I began tryiing to build guns, and around the same time lost my close up vision : )

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #13 on: February 13, 2012, 02:04:01 PM »
time.   because of developed technology that is pervasive in our modern american lives we simply have more time to spend on doing the things we WANT to do rather than the things we HAVE to do.   even our modern tools, for the most part, simple let us use our time more efficiently.  we can accomplish more with less effort.
  I think too, that we are working for for a different customer base, either for our own enjoyment, "On spec" or for customers who know they are buying a work of functional art. In any case, for the most part we have more time to put into a project; though our full-time and professional builder may dispute this factor.  I suspect that for many of the original era builders production time and rates were much more of a life-or-death issue, economically for the builder and literally perhaps for a customer.

Improved health,  (Including eye care) When I think back to my grandfather's aching crabbed up hands as he tried to work, in his farm workshop when I was a little kid, I give thanks regularly for advances in medical care.  Imagine the working environment in a 18th century workshop, light levels, air filled with dirt, dust, and smoke on regular intervals.  It not only impacted the actual working conditions but the workers health and ability to work as well.

To reiterate, the internet and modern communications in general. Also the regional associations, both formal and informal as well as shows and trade related fairs, as ease and ability of travel, even the now archaic telephone and modern mail system.  All of these foster an active and vibrant association of builders spread over states, nations, and even continents.  In the earlier era you might have has some local association of local regional builders and of course the master/apprentice relationships; but nothing like we have today.   there is probably much more along these lines if we stop and think about it.
One could easily argue that NOW is the Golden Age of the American Long Rifle
« Last Edit: February 13, 2012, 02:06:11 PM by The other DWS »

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #14 on: February 13, 2012, 02:41:25 PM »
Electric lights and an air conditioner make a shop comfortable and machinery like lathes,milling machines,vertical and horizontal bandsaws plus a myriad of hand tools all make for easier work today. To me,the air conditioner is mandatory. Trying to do accurate work with sweat in my eyes is not on the schedule.
Investment casting for oddly shaped parts like lock plates with "rain proof" pans and fluted edges are a real help. In the 1950's,we had malleable iron castings for some items like percussion and flint hammers,frizzens,a very limited number of lock plate styles and detachable pans. There were decent brass and "silver"trigger guards and butt plates available. Locks and triggers were a hit and miss thing at best. We are much better off now than in the 1950's. Old skills have been redeveloped by people with a high level of interest in them and the work seen today in many cases far surpasses anything of the "Golden age",whenever and whatever THAT was.

Bob Roller

Offline flehto

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #15 on: February 13, 2012, 04:58:09 PM »
Prescription eyeglasses, magnfiers and electric lighting are of prime importance....can't build what you can't see. Read, where many gunsmiths relatively early on, turned to blacksmithing and farming and wonder if bad eye sight was the problem? I've been building LRs since 1977 and have noticed since then that my eye sight has deteriorated because of macular degeneration  and similar maladies must have plagued the gunsmiths of yore. W/o the seeing aids and electric bench lights, couldn't build even one LR.....Fred

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #16 on: February 13, 2012, 06:01:51 PM »
Services that inlet the barrels and drill the ramrod holes.

It's the modern apprentice replacement.
Tom Curran's web site : http://monstermachineshop.net
Ramrod scrapers are all sold out.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #17 on: February 13, 2012, 07:30:37 PM »
Many of the things mentioned so far allow building a longrifle to be a hobby, and it seems to me the hobby builder drives the business.  I have no data but a wild guess is that 90% or more of guns built are built by hobby builders like myself who build for themselves, friends, and build a spec gun or two.  Guys like Jim Chambers and Don and John Getz would have a good idea about the percentage of hobby versus professional builds.  Books, videos, classes and the time we allow ourselves to build a rifle all allow us to approximate 18th century quality in a build, without the actual training as youths, when we would be most liable to learn quickly and develop efficiency that would enable us to do our work in a more timely manner.  Many builders today refer to  machine inlet barrel channels, pre-breeched and finished barrels, off the shelf small parts etc as modern day apprentices.  Bivins proposed that idea, and it did apply to him as he had mastered all those tasks, as far as I know.  But a lot of builders today have never mastered inletting a barrel by hand, fitting a breechplug without a lathe, drilling a ramrod hole, making a patchbox hinge, etc., so I am not sure it's accurate in some cases to consider those things modern day apprentices.  Seems to me the apprentice should not have skills the journeyman or master does not have.  So although I think we have many conveniences that allow us to build longrifles as hobby builders, many of us never develop the basic skills an apprentice would master in his first year or two.
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #18 on: February 13, 2012, 08:18:08 PM »
This is quite a list everybody has come up with.  I would like to go back to what I mentioned previously for a moment,  investment casting for lock part and modern maching methods for barrels.  While there are many advantages today that have been listed, I think with just these two, longrifle building today could exist on a decent scale.  What this indicates to me is that although we have benefits today, many do not have as big of an impact pertaining to the ability to build longrifles today as might initially seem.  Sure, lights, corrective lenses, a few power tools, twist drills etc. help to some degree, but the point is that most of the techniques that were applicable to building longrifles in the 18th century are still the ones that work well today.  Time may have passed, but people are still people, wood is still wood and many of the most applicable tools and techniques are still the same. 

Offline KentSmith

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #19 on: February 14, 2012, 12:03:45 AM »
Modern technology has provided tools to replace labor.  Current barrel making with modern steels, deep hole drilling, milling machines, etc.  Investment casting of intricate parts, mass production eliminating cost due to economies of scale, etc.  All these developments have used industrial technology to replace labor.  However, labor in the 18th century was very cheap.  Had this technology been available would many shops have taken advantage of it?  I don't know.  I could hear the argument "why have a barrel made for me when I have apprentices doing it for less?"  My answer would be time.

In addition to more time today, we have optics, electricity for lighting and small power tools, better communication through the web and other means.  Sure there were a lot of guns in those days but most people never got beyond their county so unlikely saw more than the architecture the local smiths made.  We have a far smaller monopoly on the gun market acting as a negative influence as far as demand goes.

Offline b bogart

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #20 on: February 14, 2012, 12:03:55 AM »
Asa retired skilled building trades craftsman I see this apprenticeship, journeyman, master thing a little differently. After 31 years I realized that just because you served an apprenticeship thru to completion doesn't mean you are a craftsman. In the same vein I have seen apprentices that after a couple years could put some journeyman to shame. In the same vein, individual craftsmen have different ways to get the same results. If an apprentice worked with a particular journeyman, he would learn a certain way to accomplish certain tasks. Another would teach him a different way. When he worked with me I'd teach him the "right" way ( ;D) At some tasks an apprentice would outshine many journeymen. And develop their own ways to accomplish whatever needed done.

That being said, if my observations are correct, some of the old masters were outshone by their students. We do not know at what time in their careers they did this.  Also, knowing craftsmen like I do, there is no correct way, just the way to get it done!

Sorry I rambled. I hope it is clear enough to seem pertinent to this conversation. I crawl back into the shadows now


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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #21 on: February 14, 2012, 12:50:50 AM »
quite bluntly,  without being able to buy pre-breached barrels and a bunch of the other "apprentice-produced" bits and pieces I simply would not even give thought to building my own rifle-----which mean I would not own one at all.

 While I am a semi competent wood hacker, drilling and tapping with any degree of precision in heavy stock, let alone cutting the threads for a plug is beyond my capability (I'm struggling this afternoon to get my VERA-VISE assembled properly) let alone casting parts, engineering and creating a lock from scratch, hardening and tempering the proper parts the proper way.   ALL stuff a real apprentice would have learned to do in his sleep before he got his walking papers.

I might be able to learn them even now, but at 64 the learning curve is more a vertical line than not.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2012, 12:52:51 AM by The other DWS »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #22 on: February 14, 2012, 12:58:16 AM »
Asa retired skilled building trades craftsman I see this apprenticeship, journeyman, master thing a little differently. After 31 years I realized that just because you served an apprenticeship thru to completion doesn't mean you are a craftsman. In the same vein I have seen apprentices that after a couple years could put some journeyman to shame. In the same vein, individual craftsmen have different ways to get the same results. If an apprentice worked with a particular journeyman, he would learn a certain way to accomplish certain tasks. Another would teach him a different way. When he worked with me I'd teach him the "right" way ( ;D) At some tasks an apprentice would outshine many journeymen. And develop their own ways to accomplish whatever needed done.

That being said, if my observations are correct, some of the old masters were outshone by their students. We do not know at what time in their careers they did this.  Also, knowing craftsmen like I do, there is no correct way, just the way to get it done!

Sorry I rambled. I hope it is clear enough to seem pertinent to this conversation. I crawl back into the shadows now



Yes, there will always be variations amongst people, but at the same time there are general basic principles that are  pretty pervasive within any field.  Passing on these techniques, principles etc. is of course one of the primary functions of an apprenticeship system.

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #23 on: February 14, 2012, 01:05:46 AM »
 I think human nature hasn't changed all that much in general when it comes to whether or not a full time builder adopts new/modern technology. The old builders apparently started buying parts such as barrels, locks, ect. when they became available. I have no doubt they would have approached electricity or machinery the same way. It would be interesting to know how many of the old builders actually relied fully on gunbuilding and not related work such as blacksmithing and farming. I'm guessing that would depend a lot on the time period and their location. It's just my guess but I don't think many of the old masters spent all their working years earning a living soley from building guns. Except for a few volume builder such as Dickert, most may have been more like modern day builders working without employees.

Offline J. Talbert

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Re: Longrifle building today
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2012, 01:30:21 AM »
Optics, I think should not be underestimated.  I'd guess that poor eye sight may have shortened the careers of many skilled gunsmiths.
By poor eye sight I mean simply loss of close up vision, commonly encountered after the age of 40.
I know that spectacles were around, but I'm not sure how available they were, especially in more remote areas.
Jeff
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