Author Topic: What's honest marketing ?  (Read 25001 times)

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #25 on: February 15, 2012, 07:46:26 PM »
Yes, but what is being questioned is whether the majority of locks and barrels used on guns built even before the Rev War were purchased.  I don't know.  Certainly some were.  I personally think this is true with locks, but don't have documentation to back it up.  Barrells...  perhaps but I don't know?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #26 on: February 15, 2012, 07:51:42 PM »
Back to the marketing topic...  Names, titles, labels, categories etc. seem to always break down and therefore I don't put a lot of stock in them.  A work or two to descibe something such as a longrifle is bound to fail.  In terms of the customer, he or she should be educated and not rely on such things.


Offline Dphariss

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #27 on: February 15, 2012, 08:11:33 PM »
Most barrels and locks were purchased even before the Rev-War.
Dan

And your evidence for this statement is ,,,,, what??

John
[/quote]


For example.

1764  May:
Stock in the Gunstocking Shop
233 gunstock blanks
15 English Rifle barrels
15 locks for the above....

1766 Nov:
...12 forged rifle barrel blanks
14 finished /manufactured rifle locks
2 Do rifle locks
1     Do
1     Do
2 rifle locks made in the gunshop....
[This appears to indicate that they bought 18 locks and made 2.]

From "Moravian Gun Making of the American Revolution"

By the Rev-war there were barrel forgers   who did nothing but weld and probably bore gun barrels. There were also numerous "boring and grinding mills" where barrels were bored and then ground octagonal but may not have had a forge. A look at many old barrels will show the bottom 3 flats still have the grind stone marks that have never been removed. When the forging and boring was combined in one plant I could not say from what documentation I have. Kauffman tells us that owners of boring mills etc were often listed as gunsmiths since they made gun parts.

In "Moravian Gun Making" we learn that J. Dickert was buying barrels from the shop. But then we have to ask if they were making barrels from flat stock or were then buying them rough forged and them boring and rifling them? I suspect the later but perhaps not exclusively. Rough forging 15 barrels, for example, would be a lot of hammering and little else being done in a shop with one master and an apprentice or two until they were done. Maybe a boy to run the bellows. Big pile of fuel to make or buy...

Locks were imported in large numbers from England and Germany and the majority of locks were likely imports. The Rev-War interrupted this so its possible that more locks and barrels were made in America during the War than before.
Apparently it was possible to buy finished buttplates and TGs as well. Some even engraved.
Locks were still being imported in vast numbers in the 19th century, usually from England, until they were no longer needed. England was well established as a mass producer of gun parts. Many are marked with the American importer/hardware dealer's name who then resold them.

So we KNOW some locks were made here, some (many) were imported. See W. Gusler's video on carving a Kentucky rifle he discusses this.
So we KNOW barrels were made here, some by gunsmiths, some (many I suspect) by firms that did nothing but rough forge barrels and perhaps bore and grind them as well. Some barrels were imported. See Kindig pg 11 and 23 etc. Read Kauffman's "The Pennsylvania-Kentucky Rifle".
We have NO idea what the ratio of each is. But I suspect that once barrel blanks started being commercially made that routinely forging a barrel in a gunshop was less common.
Were the "rough forged" barrels in the Moravian records welded in shop or purchased as blanks to be reamed and rifled there? There is a good chance the answer is BOTH.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #28 on: February 15, 2012, 08:22:19 PM »
I hesitate to post this but I think it is relevant while admittedly sketchy.....  Several years ago I found primary documentation in some online county records from Lancaster PA that a Swiss gentleman named Henri Leman arrived with others in his family from the old country in 1715 and set up a "barrel mill' along the Conestoga river/creek .. What kind of barrels was he milling??
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Offline Robert Wolfe

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2012, 09:37:27 PM »
Ultimately it is up to the buyer to ask questions of the builder. If it is important that the stock is built from a blank, or the lock is hammered and filed out then you should ask the questions. We're not going to come up with descriptive language that will satisfy every situation or everyone's personal bias. Interesting discussion though.
« Last Edit: February 16, 2012, 04:12:17 PM by Robert Wolfe »
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Offline JTR

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #30 on: February 16, 2012, 02:06:05 AM »
Sorry for not being clear in my comment. I wasn't questioning whether barrels and locks were available, or purchased before the Rev War.
I was questioning the use of the word Most

I don't know one way or the other, and so far don't see anything that proves conclusively that Most were purchased.

After the war, I'd think that a majority were probably purchased.

Sorry for the off topic,
John

John Robbins

Offline Dphariss

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #31 on: February 16, 2012, 06:35:01 AM »
Sorry for not being clear in my comment. I wasn't questioning whether barrels and locks were available, or purchased before the Rev War.
I was questioning the use of the word Most

I don't know one way or the other, and so far don't see anything that proves conclusively that Most were purchased.

After the war, I'd think that a majority were probably purchased.

Sorry for the off topic,
John



I don't "know" one way or another other than from my readings. However, over the years this indicates that more barrels and locks were either imported or "factory" made than were made in shop especially locks.
I would stand firmly behind the statement  "most". I believe that it is correct.
However. Nothing will be 100% correct in 100% of circumstances/locations.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline smylee grouch

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #32 on: February 16, 2012, 07:08:47 AM »
When it comes to "what they did in those old days" I wonder if we couldnt say never say always and never say never. It just seems that when one person says something like that someone will come up with documentation to the contrary. Ramblings of an older observer.   Smylee

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #33 on: February 17, 2012, 03:12:46 AM »
but more than anything I like to judge ia gun for what it is and not how it was accomplished.  This is just my personal viewpoint, however.  If a gun is good enough, people won't really care too much about the "how" in my opinion.  

This surprises me greatly, to say the least...

I was looking at youtube a while back and I came across this video demonstrating how a computer program could be used to design and draw scrolls and similar rococo and baroque designs. The thought of this, a computer being used to produce these designs... well it kind me laugh, and then it made me feel a little queasy like I wanted to upchuck a bit. Just like I feel about this discussion..

Now we have computer programs that will draw scroll work for you! Imagine that! Isn't it wonderful!?

Now that this is the case I wonder... will anyone ever pick up a pencil and piece of paper and try it? they don't have to that is for sure.

Now it isn't even necessary to hand shape a stock. A machine will do it for you. Yes, imagine that. There is a machine do to everything now a days, for sure...

I guess I'm living in the past with my ideology. Right where I want to be...

Personally, I value the human mind. The human hand... The eye...

Who needs Leonardo Da Vinci? We can make a paint by numbers Mona Lisa that anyone can do!

I get peeved when people want to make claims that they "make it handmade... in the 18th century manner" in an attempt to elevate there experience and ability level... when they don't do it that way at all... to me, that is an insult and shows a lack of respect for people who actually DO IT that way!

There is a lot to be said about preserving traditions in which modern shortcuts are not a part of. This not only applies to gun making. It applies to everything. There is value in actually making things in "handmade" manner, using methods that were not available in the past... you can not compare a gun that has a precarved stock to a hand shaped stock. It takes talent and ability to fashion one by hand. The kind of talent, ability and understanding that not everyone has... Individuals that can truly make "handmade" items should stand out and get the respect they deserve.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 03:15:17 AM by Tony Clark »

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #34 on: February 17, 2012, 04:13:54 AM »
Tony,

Well, CNC technology and CAD has come a long way, but it's usefulness in longrifle building is pretty limited.  The way this technology shines is mass production of a particular design.  With enough money, the very best technology could be used in producing a longrifle including carving and engraving, but it is not practicle.  The cost would be extremely high and there isn't a market to support it.  Further, one very important thing to understand is that the computer or CNC machine doesn't just pop out a design.  Someone must create a design. So although the proces is different, the object is still being created by a person or people.  In reality to create something such as a nearly complete longrifle, the development process would be many, many times more difficult and time consuming than actually just building one with traditional methods.  Further, to create designs that are really good and contain the human aspect is exceedingly difficult on such a project. So, no need to fear, computers and machines aren't going to take over any time soon.

With this the case, my primary concern is still what the finished product is and not how it was accomplished.  There may be isolated processes where technology can be applied to longrifle building, but it is still a small part of the overall picture.

Jim
« Last Edit: February 17, 2012, 04:36:50 AM by Jim Kibler »

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2012, 04:35:25 AM »
I concur! If you advertise a rifle as being hand made it should be made as  closely as can be to the way it was done originally. I don't think anyone would begrudge you electric lights or prescription glasses. But after that, if it is a hand made rifle, use the tools used by Dickert, Fordney, Verner, that's handmade. Not to say a great rifle cannot be made using modern methods, but its not traditional. Maybe that's the word we are looking for, traditional. Bottom line is be honest with your customers, explain the process that made the gun. Let us honor those fine gentlemen that led us to this path.

TRADITIONAL is what it was. If all today's technology was available THEN, don't you think the makers of the day wouldn't have used it? The 17th and 18th century as it could have been, not as it was.

Offline James Wilson Everett

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2012, 07:11:14 AM »
uys,

Amen and Amen to several of the replies here.  Perhaps there should be a different term used for guns that are really and truly hand made.  Actually, if the craftsman buys all of the metal parts ready made and only assembles or stocks the gun, then it is a kit assembly no matter if the wood is precarved or not.  I do not mean to disrespect the great majority of craftsmen out there as I truly am humbled by the amazing art in wood carving and engraving that is often displayed.  My art is only a poor and unskilled reflection of some of you guys.

However, there is a huge difference when a gun starts as a wagon wheel rim and two barn hinges as opposed to a credit card sent to Track of the Wolf.  perhaps we could call the guns that are made in the a8th c manner as "traditional guns" as the term "handmade" can and does have a wide variation in both meaning and understanding.

Think about this - often I use four wood screws in a rifle 2-butt, 1-triggerguard, 1-patchbox spring.  To make these is a full 8 hour day!!!!

Jim
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 03:50:47 PM by James Wilson Everett »

Offline Pete G.

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #37 on: February 18, 2012, 02:44:18 AM »
I have a hard time distinguishing the difference between an apprentice removing excess wood from a blank and a machine removing excess wood from a blank. Seems to me they are one and the same.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #38 on: February 18, 2012, 04:23:25 PM »
Pete, to me the difference is that the master knows how to do it and could do it and did do it.  How many today work all the way from a blank with success and get a good barrel inlet, good ramrod groove, good ramrod hole, good profile and good architecture?  Those skills are not trivial, yet almost lost for many.
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #39 on: February 18, 2012, 05:14:02 PM »
Good explanation Rich.

 I agree with others who have said that when using small descriptives. It just comes down to semantics and what each person perceives that phrase to mean. I personally think a chambers kit can be termed hand made/built and not violate my perception of the terminology. A gun being completely hand made including lock, all hardware and barrel can use the same terminology but the product, when defined in more than two or three words renders itself a much different animal in my opinion.

That said, both of these methods of getting to a complete gun can produce a wonderful thing or a train wreck depending on who is driving the flying umbrella.

Offline Don Getz

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #40 on: February 18, 2012, 05:16:53 PM »
Lets back up and look at this from the other end.   How many of you guys have built a gun, showed it to someone, and  the guy just loves it,   Did he ask you if it was built from a "kit" or did you chew this stock out by hand?   How many have
been turned down when you tell them it was built from a kit?    Do you feel I am "cheating" because I built a gun from a
kit?   When you walk up to Jim Chambers booth or table at a show, do you say, boy they are super guns, but they were
built from kits.........he cheated?    Honesty has nothing to do with it, a gun will be sold on its own merits, no matter how
the wood was removed.   ...........Don

Offline JDK

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #41 on: February 18, 2012, 05:51:18 PM »
Reading some of the recent post it almost seems we have 2 seperate issues converging here. Scratch building guns vs. stocking guns and Master vs. Apprentice.

Rich, reading your post above it could lead one to believe that it's OK for the Master to use a kit provided he had mastered all the tasks required to build the kit.  So, even if he didn't do the prep, it's hand crafted.....but not "scratch built" or at least by one set of hands.

Short of forming a Guild that certifies all Master Gunbuilders none of this will ever be resolved....and I don't see that happening.  What would be the point, some would "cheat" before or after, many wouldn't participate and many more don't care.  Who would qualify anyway?  How many have made a barrel....or lock for that matter.....from scratch?

Even if terms could be agreed on how would you inforce them?  We must rely on our judgement and the honesty of others in making all purchases and an uneducated buyer is one who doesn't care what he gets as long as he likes it.....Ford/Chevy despite what Car and Drivers says.

Build it from a block or a warped "pre-carve" that the barrel doesn't fit in and 50% of the wood has to be removed to resemble a longrifle.  Barrels are machine made by craftsman as many were in the past and they all need work before you can use them.  The locks are assembled by hand by craftsman and tweeked by the gun maker.  I have never bought any hardware that doesn't need work.

This is really kind of a ridiculous debate.  Words are subjective at this point and without a checklist and inspectors standing over every "apprentice" to assure he can be elevated to "Master" .....Oh, he gets his union care he will just "cheat" and by a nice kit anyway.  Really....I am going to go "assemble" something....maybe a cup of coffee....mines machine made.                                      J.D.K.
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Offline bob in the woods

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #42 on: February 18, 2012, 06:01:24 PM »
I think this really comes down to one's definition of a "kit".   Even a Chambers "kit" requires a fair  amount of work, and the amount of wood I took off my N E Fowling stock, and my E. Marshal stock was substantial.
The main difference that I see is that your design is limited by the use of a kit. LOP etc .  How the main portion of wood was removed is not really significant in terms of the end product.  Hand made....? what about power tools ?   I made a gun from scratch without any power tools at all, just because I wanted to.
Did the extra effort show in the end product ?  Could you tell that I drilled for the ramrod  with a brace instead of a power drill ?    In the end, the gun speaks for itself IMO

Offline Dphariss

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #43 on: February 18, 2012, 06:49:42 PM »
uys,

Amen and Amen to several of the replies here.  Perhape there should be a different term used for guns that are really and truly hand made.  Actually, if the craftsman buys all of the metal parts ready made and only assembles or stocks the gun, then it is a kit assembly no matter if the wood is precarved or not.  I do not mean to disrespect the great majority of craftsmen out there as I truly am humbled by the amazing art in wood carving and engraving that is often displayed.  My art is only a poor and unskilled reflection of some of you guys.

However, there is a huge difference when a gun starts as a wagon wheel rim and two barn hinges as opposed to a credit card sent to Track of the Wolf.  perhaps we could call the guns that are made in the a8th c manner as "traditional guns" as the term "handmade" can and does have a wide variation in both meaning and understanding.

Think about this - often I use four wood screws in a rifle 2-butt, 1-triggerguard, 1-patchbox spring.  To make these is a full 8 hour day!!!!

Jim

Then the vast majority of originals were made from kits.
How far back must we go? Does the tree have to be cut with an axe? The planks cut with a pit saw?
Do we have to make our own iron in a furnace in the back yard?
If the original barrels and locks were complete coming into the gunshop in 1770 does it MATTER the technology that was used before they arrived? No. It comes as a complete part.
Do you honestly believe that someone making rifles for a living at ANY period would/could spend 2 hours on a wood screw? Unless he gets 50K for the finished gun?
Working at a livable rate of pay for today the screws would cost 50-100 bucks each considering the tools, the shop etc etc.  I made some breechplugs for friends for 1 1/4" barrels. I charged 50 bucks apiece for them and likely lost money making them from 1 1/2" round stock.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #44 on: February 18, 2012, 07:05:28 PM »
Kit or scratch built. WHO cares if the end result is a quality job. The few that I have made with one exception were scratch built from a blank.I made my own locks and triggers,bought a barrel,trigger guard and butt plate. The exception was a representation of an Alex Henry long range rifle. I had a Don Brown partly finished straight grip match rifle stock.bought his butt plate,the trigger guard from TOW and had a suitable single trigger.The lock was a "4 pin"of my own make with Henry hammer.The barrel was a GM 45 1-1/8 turned down to .900 at the muzzle and the last 2' left octagon to match Don's breech. The front sight was a 17A which I made into an adjustable one with spirit level.The folding tang sight was made from odds and ends from my cut off saw and worked fine. I finally sold it and all this info went with the rifle.
IF someone misrepresents any rifle or pistol as being made from a blank when it is really a kit then I would think that could be construed as fraud and legally actionable. IF I were to make a long rifle,I would not hesitate to use a Jim Chambers or other high quality kit and if it turned out well,I would tell anyone what it was. If it turned out badly.I would fuss at myself for being an incompetent and get on with life.
The 58 caliber flint lock rifle I built was some one else's start up and I got the wood,(walnut)with a barrel channel routed for a 1" barrel and the ramrod groove semi finished. It turned out well but my time to shoot it was limited so I sold it to someone who will hunt with it
I have a start on an N.Lewis caplock match rifle,The barrel and tang are in the wood for a year but I have yet to make a lock and triggers and tang sight for it. Someday,maybe.

Bob Roller

Offline Dave B

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #45 on: February 18, 2012, 07:54:15 PM »
I remember hearing about some one finding a longrilfe stock that was rough pre shaped up in the rafters of an old gunshop. The dimensions were such that a person would be able to build the rifle quicker due to the pre shaping and this was in a early 1800's building. I think Wallace Gussler was the one sharing the information with us at the time. The stock had a eye screw in the end of the for stock for hanging up.  Was it really made to use down the road or a apprentice exercise?  If this was some thing that was being practiced then, the agreement with the statement does it really matter whether it was a pre-carve by machine or by flunky.  It  I think is a good practice to have full disclosure on what is made by the builder from the raw materials and what was purchased ready to install. just my thoughts
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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #46 on: February 18, 2012, 08:47:37 PM »
Gentlemen,

And of course, one needs to discuss how the apprentice system figures into this. If one ordered a rifle from a master 'smith who then had his different apprentices perform various tasks, is the gun a "kit gun"? I've often thought that apprentice work is the best explanation for obvious variations by a recognized master.

Using this criterion, then a Holland & Holland best quality shotgun is a "kit gun". One pays for shop finish, most often done by the master 'smith. Gunsmiths have to make a living and this is what mainly drove the apprentice system and what drives the 'pre-carve" system today. To me, a "scratch-built" rifle has its component parts made by the gunsmith's hand...unfortunately, the cost of "scratch-built" guns precludes many customers from ordering one.

Among gunsmiths there are many different levels of expertise and these are always changing, hopefully for the better. This was the situation back in the day, and is exactly the same situation now.

Steve   

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #47 on: February 18, 2012, 08:57:40 PM »
I really think this is not all that complicated. 

-The gunbuilder should be honest in how a product is represented.
-A word or a few words are most likely not going to describe the product well. 
-The customer should be educate himself.
-There is no right way to value a finished gun.  For some the final product is all that is important.  For   others the "how" is very important as well.  To each his own.

It seems that should about cover things.

Offline rich pierce

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #48 on: February 18, 2012, 11:31:34 PM »
Rich, reading your post above it could lead one to believe that it's OK for the Master to use a kit provided he had mastered all the tasks required to build the kit.  So, even if he didn't do the prep, it's hand crafted.....but not "scratch built" or at least by one set of hands..This is really kind of a ridiculous debate.                               J.D.K.

It's OK for folks to do whatever they want, of course.  My point is that an 18th century apprentice, journeyman or master had mastered more skills than many attempt today.  Not trying to be a pain.  I agree the debate is not going to result in some final resolution or conclusion but that doesn't mean the issues discussed are not important.  Most builders today should be considered gunstockers in my opinion.  We can say that back in the day the master did primarily final finish work but I doubt that is true; we make a lot of assumptions.  I believe many shops had one gunsmith.  A first year apprentice might only file stuff, light the forge, do basic stuff and not pre-shape a stock.  I don't know.  I will say that gunsmiths of the time seem to have been able to do a lot of things many cannot today.  I think it is fair to say that most contemporary makers are gunstockers.  I think those only who build from kits where everything is pre-inlet are closer to gun assemblers/finishers than gun stockers or gunsmiths.  I've done some gunstocking and some gun finishing, but find the more I do, the more meaningful it is for me.  If this is too far off topic I'll split it out.  I know my viewpoint on this may tick some folks off, but I think it would be hard to disagree that 18th century longrifle builders had a broader skillset than most contemporary makers.  To lump them together under the same name of gunsmith implies there is no difference.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2012, 11:37:39 PM by rich pierce »
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Offline JDK

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Re: What's honest marketing ?
« Reply #49 on: February 19, 2012, 12:08:40 AM »
Well said Rich and I agree with that assessment.

Dan makes great points too.  With a builders time to build being limited by kids, work, home, etc., if he had to turn out his own barrels and locks it could take him a long time to turn out a gun and he would not own/sell to many.  Those building for a living, I don't imagine they would be able to support them selves turning out the few guns a year they would be able to complete and would certainly need at least one assistant for barrel production....just not time effective.  While I am in awe of the few builders today who turn out a gun lock, stock and barrel, I can not see where it is very profitable and I know they are not doing it purely for profit...if there is any after their time is considered.

Each builder builds for his own satisfaction and knows how much work he has or has not put into his end product.  He is obviously satisfied with his method or he would have done it differently, right?  On the original subject of honesty, each builders conscience has to be his guide.  Each buyer has to ask the right questions.  If I was to order a gun from a builder and was to specify how it was to be built the builder could either agree to do it that way or not do it at all.  If there are builders out there attempting to deceive I imagine the word would spread quickly and their business would suffer to some point.

I am really surprised this wasn't moved "over the back fence" some time ago....where I rarely visit....but is a good debate.  ;)  J.D.K.
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