What's honest marketing ?

[Jim Kibler]

Yes Rich, I agree with what you're getting at, but what practical implication does it have?  It comes right back to semantics and the problems associated with them.  So are you going to petition for those who stock up guns from parts to no longer be permitted to refer to themselves as gunsmiths?  Although fun to think about and perhaps discuss, this sort of stuff makes me think to myself "so what?".  I hear lots of words, discussions, opinoions etc. associated with this stuff, but for me, I take the approach of "the proof is in the pudding".

Jim

[Jim Kibler]

I might add, I agree that people should be aware of their own skills and limitations and it would be good if they knew where they stand from a historical perspective, but again, I can't help to wonder what the practical significance of this stuff is.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

It is useful to know what we don't know.... or what we haven't yet learned to do..... The gap between how we see ourselves and the way we want to see ourselves provides the motivation to learn and grow..... For the most part I think that is a good thing...

[Don Getz]

After building 92, or more, guns, I have never been asked the question..."is this from a kit, or is it scratch built?".   Let
the gun stand on it's own merit, collect your money, and move on...........Don

[Acer Saccharum]

I also think that a maker gets known for his work and artistry, accuracy, quality, etc. This takes years of being on the circuit. It's building a business. It takes time.

I agree completely with Don G in that the work stands on its own. It is the object that I look at, not who made it. "Who made it" will eventually be part of my investigation, but the work really does have to appeal to me from a gut level. Often this is from across the room. Or in a bunch of other objects, one will leap out at me.

T

[Jim Chambers]

I'll keep my comments brief on this subject.
Back when I first started making the kits I was still taking a lot of orders for finished rifles.  Several times the customer ask me to build his rifle from scratch rather than from one of my kits.  I always replied that I would be more than happy to do that.  I had made a lot of guns from scratch over the years as well as having hand made the patterns for the kit and would be glad to scratch build one for him.  It would end up looking exactly like a rifle made from a pre-carved stock, the only difference would be the extra $1,000 I would have to charge for the extra time to build from scratch.  Guess what, not one single person ever paid the extra grand and opted for the scratch built gun.
At least one or more of the really great rifles made by John Bivins, Monty Mandarino, and several other well known makers started life as one of our kits.  Few would recognize any of these rifles as having started from one of my kits because of the great art those artists applied to my "blank canvas".
Incidentally, John Bivins always considered himself a "gun stocker".  His definition of a gunsmith/gunmaker was one who could hand make the barrel, lock, stock and all hardware.

[The other DWS]

Does it boil down to price? Are we actually quibbling about "truth on labeling"

 I think than most of us agree that a totally hand built (no power tools) shop built (everything fabricated on premises), would be the ne-plus ultra of "hand-built", especially if they dug the ore and coal and cut the wood on their own back 40.  But it still could be an ugly inaccurate piece of work.  Even though it would have a huge cost in labor involved.

Everyone who buys (or has bought over the centuries) one of these arms has a whole range of personal criteria, conscious and sub-conscious, that they evaluate before cash and gun change hands. The functionality, assumed accuracy if it is being bought to shoot, Art, visual and historical appeal,the degree of handwork vrs. machine work, the degree of purchased parts vrs. in-house mfg are all factors.  They may (or maybe should) be reflected in a purchase price, but supply and demand, style, personal preferences tend to trump them.
  I don't buy guns as an investment with a P&L calculator in hand.  I buy theme because I like them, or probably more correctly because I can't help myself.  Some just reach out and grab me and won't let go--for whatever reason.

[Pete G.]

Seems like this whole discussion really comes down to "What is a Kit?"

If you order a grouping of components from a supplier that all come together in a box, is it really a kit? What if you order the same components from different suppliers? You have the same parts, but it is definitely not a "kit".
Jim Chambers provides kits are more complete than most and due to preliminary inleting and parts location that have a chance of producing a better finished result than the component sets that are available elsewhere. On the other hand, the less finished kits have more room for customization to produce a unique gun if assembled by a talented builder.

I see very little difference in the final results of a talented builder from either a pre carved stock with component parts or a blank and assembled parts. A less talented builder can produce a rifle from a blank that is considerably less valuable due to odd architecture and things that just are not correct. Does it really come down to price or just snob appeal ? There are some who know the price of everything but the value of nothing.

[JDK]

Well, since we decided to reopen this thread......after spending about four evenings scraping and cuttin' to get a tapered and flared O/R fowler barrel into a old "preshaped" stock that was supposed to be preinlet for it.....not only underside but I have found it not square to the lock/side panels.....once I get it seated I figure I should get extra points for this one.  Never had a problem with straight barrels.

Fred Miller laughed when I stopped by his place today.....said with a wink "I coulda put that in for you in about 20 minutes.....everybody tries it once and then they would send them to me from then on."  This was my once. J.D.K.

[JDK]

Oh, and for those of reading who know Fred, he was in the shop and working on war clubs.  I went to the house first and his wife told me walked down.....beautiful day here, most of it.  He is doing OK but says he feels like his stride is a little shorter.  He appreciated all who called/visited after his surgery.  J.D.K.

[James Wilson Everett]

Guys,

Here is one made from a wagon wheel rim, barn hinge and blacksmith tong handles, all without modern tools (actually only 18th c tools were used).  Only the three springs and the frizzen are carbon steel.  I am sure that there are 400 hours work here.  As stated above this puts the price out to where only the very rich can afford. Tthis one is really "hand made".

Jim

[dannybb55]

Is that at the 65 bucks an hour shop rate or the 20 bucks an hour for the personal paycheck. The choice seems to be Do I want a new truck or a sweet rifle? Even at 65 bucks an hour the price is reasonable and affordable for most people, if that is what they need. Preppers spend way more on 556 and MREs and most of them are living paycheck to paycheck.
 Now I need to go convince my wife .

[Rolf]

I think when people judge a product emotional values are important.. I've buy sapphires to use on the silver filigree knives. I buy them whole sale from Thailand. There are two main types of sapphire, lab-grown and natural. Both are chemically identical. A 4mm, round, lab-grown, costs $10 and is flawless. A similar flawless natural costs $600. It is impossible to tell the difference between the two, without, long expertise and expensive special equipment. Still people are willing to pay 60 times more for a flawless natural stone. I use mainly 4mm, round, eye clean (2. lowest grade) stone. They cost $25. Eye clean means that the stone has flawes, but they are only visible with 10x magnification.  Also, if the stone is flawed, I know it is a natural. Lab-grown stones are always flawless. It's all about emotional values.

Best regards
Rolf

[Larry Pletcher]

Since Rolf mentioned "emotional value" let me also mention friendship connection.  Over the past 35 years enjoying the study of flintlocks, I feel blessed to have friends among the builders of these pieces.  Not having deep pockets, I realize that my friends guns are well above the price I could afford.  One such friend, whom I would call a "super builder", discussed building a rifle from a "kit" to help me afford one of his guns.

I'm sure there is a gun for every price range. Some can afford a gun completely made by hand, others a custom made gun from purchased parts. For me a "kit" gun, made a fine builder, is my best shot at a gun of this quality. I have such a gun - a superb gun, made by a great builder, who is a friend.  Whether it is a "kit gun" or not doesn't matter.

Regards,
Pletch

[Osprey]

After building 92, or more, guns, I have never been asked the question..."is this from a kit, or is it scratch built?".   Let
the gun stand on it's own merit, collect your money, and move on...........Don

...jotting down notes on what to ask at Dixon's this summer...

 

[Canute Rex]

This is a fascinating discussion. One thing that is confusing the debate, IMHO, is casting it as a binary question - hand built, or not? It's a continuum.

A friend of mine and I have a slow, ongoing project of smelting iron from local ore in a so-called "Aristotle furnace." It's slow going, a fist sized lump at a time. My dream project is to make a knife for  a friend of mine out of ore from his town. The number of labor hours will be immense, but I'm really doing it for the experience. Will my hand-smelted knife be functionally or aesthetically better than one made from commercial 1084 steel? Mmmmm, doubtful. But it will have a better story behind it. And I'll have to tell that story for anyone to notice.

So how many of you lightweights are smelting the ore for your rifle barrels, hm?  Ok, so not even the big name gunsmiths of the 18th and 19th centuries did that. They made barrels from bar iron if they had to and bought them if they could. They made locks if they had to and bought them if they could. Or they built the parts that "mattered" and bought the parts that didn't, whatever their standard for "mattered" was. Any individual gunsmith of the classic era probably slid back and forth along the scratch-built to kit-built continuum depending on economics and circumstance.

The value of totally scratch building things is in the mind of the builder and the customer. There is something wonderful about an artifact with a lot of genius and sweat in it. I love a thing with a good story behind it. There is also something wonderful about a rifle that balances well and shoots fast and straight. The two don't necessarily overlap. Be honest and let the customer decide how much money he wants to spend and how far along the scratch-built continuum he wants to go.

I should note that when I was a teenager I built a pistol from a kit with the benevolent help of an old gunsmith named Henry Palmer. It took all the patience I had and more. Since then I have been in awe of anybody with the patience, knowledge, and fine motor skills to build even the most complete kit.

[Jim Kibler]

As I've said, different things are important to different people.  I respect that.  With that said, I agree with Don in that for the vast majority of customers,  final appeal of the gun is what overwhelmingly matters.  A "hand made" gun that might have some issues and not have that much appeal will be much less desireable than a kick ass gun made from a precarved stock, in my opinion.  The final product is real and concrete.  How it was produced is just a thought.  Building a high quality functional gun is not too difficult, but creating something that has lots of appeal and evokes an emotional response is much more difficult and the ultimate goal.  Think of holding a truely great gun and trying to take it all in.  For me it really is an experience that involves emotions.  It's like listening to really great music.  It's not that easy to create a hit song or a kick ass gun, but that's to ultimate goal.

[JCKelly]

honest marketing = oxymoron

[axelp]

   

Ken Prather
(Art Director for an Ad Agency)

[FL-Flintlock]

How about those who can produce a nice looking gun from a "kit" but if you give 'em a plank they can't make a stock ... give 'em some sheet metal and they can't make a thimble or patchbox and if it weren't for the PC and a printer, or book and photocopier, they couldn't lay out the carving/checkering designs.

One of my clients recently had an experience with such a fellow who calls himself a "custom gunmaker" ... one has to wonder how the word "custom" could be associated with he can "only assemble a kit".  And, where does one draw the line on kits?  Would a person who buys an in-the-white gun be given equal consideration just for doing the finishing?  I mean it's still a "kit" because it isn't "finished" yet and apparently all that matters is the "finished" gun......