Antique Target Sights

[GrampaJack]

I have several rifles that originally had target accessories such as special sights, false muzzles, and bullet starters.  I have been looking for quite a long time for good pictures or drawings of such things with building them for my guns in mind. Sequatchie has a rifle made by R. England in the for sale section and the last 2 pictures show the original tang sight.  I have been studying those pictures for a long time and I am puzzled as to how the sight works. I can see the slide bars for windage and elevation each with a tiny hole to sight through but, assuming that the disk stays put I don't understand how the holes would be visible (line up) through both bars as they moved independently up and to the side. I've never claimed to be very bright but this one has me stumped. Additionally, the gun that needs a new tang sight the most (so I can shoot it) is a George Warham, Stark County, Ohio heavy target gun that I have had for some time.  The gun originally had a sight mounted on the wrist and I am wondering what sight might have been there.  I would like to find a site or possibly some pictures of various sights used on circa 1840 to late 1800s target guns.  With luck I have included pictures of the area on the Warham where the sight was located. Thanks, Jack

[Bill]

There is a nice paperback book out highlighting antique sights. I can't remember the exact name, but a search on Amazon would probably turn it up fairly quickly. Also, and I realize it's a little ways off, but at Friendship thare is a dealer in the Friendship Flea market (in town) who regularly carries quite an assortment of sights for sale.

[The other DWS]

get you hands on the book  American Percussion Schuetzen Rifle.  its not cheap so interlibrary loan might be a good bet.

www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=4&subId=24&styleId=88&partNum=BOOK-APS

  whole bunch of info in there on target sights.

[GrampaJack]

So far so good. If the moderator has time I thought I posted this in the antique collecting section.  It should probably be moved since I have nothing to sell or buy. Sorry, Jack

[Shreckmeister]

I've seen several styles of fixed and flip up lollipop sights that were mounted
with 2 screws.  This looks like it would have been set up that way.

[MarkEngraver]

 This book might be of help.

Old Gunsights
A Collector's guide, 1850-1965
by  Nick Strobel
ISBN 0-87341-559-0

The book deals with early Vernier and Tang sights from Sharps to Rollers , Winchesters etc.
Frankly the base out line looks like an impression from a Lyman or something similar.
Who's to know what might have been mounted there during the life of the gun for whatever reason ?

Mark

[Curt J]

This one looks like it might have flipped up, can't say for sure though.  The most common type of lollipop sight simply screws into a deep, tapped hole in the tang, that extends an inch or more into the wrist of the stock.  This will have very fine threads (64 threads per inch, for example) and serves as the elevation adjustment. It may, or may not, have a dovetailed slot across it with a bar containing the actual aperture, which can be adjusted for windage.  There are countless variations of these sights, since most were hand-made by the gunmaker, or another gunsmith at a later date. I have quite a few original target rifles, some with tang sights, but more with empty holes where they used to be. I could send you pictures of some of mine, if you will send me pictures of the empty holes where they were mounted.

Curt

[Dphariss]

The question is when was it mounted and who made the sight?
By the 1850s tang sights with staffs hinged to bases were appearing on factory made rifles like the Sharps. They are very common as the 19th century progresses on all the SS and many appear on lever actions as well and many after market sights were made as well. The hole spacing can tell what they were originally made for if they are not marked.
These migrated onto MLs as well.
This looks like the base is long enough for a Sharps base, the shape is pretty close too. If the screw spacing is 2.26 then the base is surely a Sharps Sporting tang sight base. I think this spacing goes back to the Sporting rifles of the 1850s.

I would expect a period peep sight for this type rifle to be a flat strap screwed to the barrel with the end bent up for a peep or a windage slide. Maybe a wedge or screw for elevation. Or a lollipop type threaded through the tang. OR the Schuetzen type with the square shank passing through a square hole in the rifle tang/base. There are even Hawken rifles made for these. 
The base type shown is more likely from a breechloader. This is virtually a sure thing if the hole spacing matches a Winchester, Sharps etc screw spacing.

Dan

[JTR]

Ebay can be your friend in this search. But be prepared for the high prices on the better sights.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_nkw=tang+sight&_sacat=71141&_odkw=&_osacat=71141&_trksid=p3286.c0.m270.l1313

I'm going to agree with Dan  that your rifle might have been fitted with later factory type tang sight. If you consider that your rifle coulds have easily been in use from 1875/1900, a sight from one of the single shot rifles wold have been the hot ticket!

Nice rifle and probably would be a lot of fun to shoot!

John

[GrampaJack]

I checked and the screw spacing is indeed 2 1/4" taken by holding my machinist scale next to the holes and eye balling it. I make that 2.26 any day. No wonder some one took the sight off before offering it for sale. It should be a great shooter since it has a Douglas liner in 45 cal. The job was so well done that I almost missed see it. We dropped a light down the bore and we all went WOW, that's when I saw the liner. I have not checked the twist yet.  I have a small machine shop in my basement (vertical mill, lathe and associated stuff) and some modest skills so I plan to try and make a sight for this gun.  I agree that it was probably a flip up although there are no marks on the comb where a sight might have rested.  I'll check into the books that were suggested.  Ebay might be a good source of pictures if nothing else.  Some big numbers there!  Finally, anyone figured out how the sight on that R. England rifle works?  Thanks for the help, Jack

[Dphariss]

I checked and the screw spacing is indeed 2 1/4" taken by holding my machinist scale next to the holes and eye balling it. I make that 2.26 any day. No wonder some one took the sight off before offering it for sale. It should be a great shooter since it has a Douglas liner in 45 cal. The job was so well done that I almost missed see it. We dropped a light down the bore and we all went WOW, that's when I saw the liner. I have not checked the twist yet.  I have a small machine shop in my basement (vertical mill, lathe and associated stuff) and some modest skills so I plan to try and make a sight for this gun.  I agree that it was probably a flip up although there are no marks on the comb where a sight might have rested.  I'll check into the books that were suggested.  Ebay might be a good source of pictures if nothing else.  Some big numbers there!  Finally, anyone figured out how the sight on that R. England rifle works?  Thanks for the help, Jack

An original Sharps sight in decent shape is worth pretty good money, might be why its gone from the gun.
You can buy short staff Sharps sights from several sources. They vary greatly in price.
The best are pretty pricey but making a good one takes skill and attention to detail.
The Sharps sight has a "stop" that might keep it off the comb so a mark on the comb is not an indicator. If it matches the Sharps base hole spacing I can assure you by the imprint that it was a Sharps sight.

The base would look like this.
http://www.montanavintagearms.com/133_windgauge.html

Dan

[GrampaJack]

I ordered the old gunsights book off Amazon. Thanks, Mark.  The link to the Sharps sight site is just what I was looking for.  Thanks, Dan.  I have also been contacted by PM for some sights that are available.  Unless I find a real nice deal I'm inclined to try and make one. I've done miniture work before making model steam engines so I think I can come up with something that will work. Once I get it done I'll post some pictures. Thanks for all the help. Jack

[dagner]

 grandpajack   check out the sharps sights from the gun  smith /maker in southern mo. he is big into black powder silloute. he makes a sharps midrange that sells for under $ 200 not as many marks on the staff but a very well made sight for the money
dag

[Bob Smalser]

Dunno how old this is, but the target rifle was probably made between 1930 and 1950 from original salvaged parts.  The rear sight is hand-made and was probably made by the craftsman who assembled the rifle.  It works exceptionally well, with click adjustments and scales for windage and elevation that are around a half-minute, given the 38" barrel length.

[smokinbuck]

Jack,
I've been following your post and the suggextions you have received are good ones. However, if you are a member, there are several good sight vendors at the OGCA show in Wilmington. The next show is in March and you could take the rifle with you for a trial fit.
Mark

[GrampaJack]

Bob, those pictures are just what I needed. Thanks very much. Jack,  Mark, I have only been to 2 OGCA shows since we moved. Just too much of a drive from N. E. Ohio.  I'm, need less to say, real happy about the new shows at the IX center.