Author Topic: color case question  (Read 28242 times)

The other DWS

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color case question
« on: February 20, 2012, 04:09:12 PM »
As part of trying to get a better understanding of the finish of arms of "our" period of interest I am wondering about how original metal parts were finished in specific the relationship between metal hardening and brown/bluing

When did color casing of gun parts begin?
Was it a deliberate thing or was it incidental to the bone/charcoal process of surface hardening gunparts?

Is there a difference between the bone/charcoal process and the cyanide process in terms of color, durability, hardness and depth of hardness; and the times they were used?

my understanding is that it developed out of a need to harden wrought iron of less that steel alloy, and later cast iron.  Was it also necessary for cast or forged steel?

I am wondering how much of the "brown" we so highly regard is benign neglect patina.
 
 I got to wondering about this as a result of several things including a lock on one of my guns.  it is a c 1880 german stalking (cartridge) rifle with a high grade back action lock that is basically a percussion lock with the hammer twisted to hit a firing pin rather than a cap the whole exterior of the rifle has a nice brown patina now, the barrel slightly rougher textured than the lock plate which has a very fine hard brown. however the inner lock plate surface appears to be a very very faded case with some slight color showing.  which is what lead me down this garden path.

Offline FlintFan

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Re: color case question
« Reply #1 on: February 20, 2012, 06:40:11 PM »
By commenting on guns I have only held in hand, the earliest one I have examined with case colors was a transitional  double flint gun (The gun also included percussion detonators) by Manton.   The best estimate on when the gun was made was about 1840, maybe late 1830's.  The locks retain case colors inside and out.  I know I have seen pictures of single barrel flint sporting rifles with color cased breeches and locks that were made earlier in the 19th century and perhaps late 18th, but I have never examined one in person.  I'm sure others here have and will comment on the earliest guns they have examined with remaining case colors.  

Case colors were most likely originally observed as a result of simply case hardening parts.  When they are observed on guns, they are done intentionally.  Extra care, planning, and techniques are required to consistently produce case colors.  The old European gun makers knew this and entire divisions of gun works were set up solely to color case parts.  As far as small gun producers like American rifle builders, that is a more difficult question to answer.  
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 06:47:55 PM by FlintFan »

Offline kutter

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Re: color case question
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2012, 06:00:39 AM »
Cyanide (molten potasium cyanide salts) hardening was a much used blacksmiths method of hardening. Quick, cheap and easy to do.
Dispite it's known dangers (keep the kids and the pets away), it was routinely used as a way to surface harden anything a blacksmith may have been called upon to make.
Not hard to imagine the gunsmith using the same method to harden parts.

I don't know the science of it, but from personal experience Cyanide hardened parts 'seem' to be of a different hardeness,,Hard to explain,, though you'd think glass hard is,,glass hard.
The case is more uniform than the bone/char pieces I've worked on and the cyanide hardened pieces take longer to anneal for some reason. Sometimes they retain just a bit of the hardness even after annealing. Some I've had to do twice.

Engraving a previously cyanide hardened piece after it has been annealed,,most times you can deffinetly feel it as opposed to a bone and charcoal hardened and annealed piece. I'm speaking of working with hammer & chisel. The air powered tools just push through it and the engraver never would notice the tiny difference.

Case hardening w/ bone& wood charcoal can be done without producing the colors and was done purposely some times. A quench in oil will do that as well as produce a slightly less than glass hard surface (depending on the metal of course).

Cyanide produced colors have a deffinate 'look' to them. Many are familiar with the rainbow type pattern seen on some top break shotguns that are case colored. Those are done with cyanide. The striped, rainbow pattern of colors comes from the mechanized quench system that lowers the parts in quick even steps.

If the parts are just quenched as they are with bone& charcoal method, you get a the typical swirl pattern but the colors are different. Most people describe them a 'blotchy' and brighter.
Post WW1 AH Fox shotguns are cyanide colored as are Remington era mfg  Parker shotguns
Side by side, the difference with bone/charcoal is unmistakeable in just about every case. Once in a while one throws you a curve though!

Above all, it's original intent was to give a hardened surface to soft, low or no carbon content iron. The colors are an after effect though a much appreciated one. So much so that much of todays work is done on some steels that were never ment to be case colored.
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 06:08:35 AM by kutter »

Offline JTR

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Re: color case question
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2012, 04:15:17 PM »
As for Kentuckys', I don't think I've ever seen an original one with Color case hardened metal parts.
I think that's more of a 1840/60, and onward thing.

English or Euro stuff used it earlier, I think.

John
« Last Edit: February 21, 2012, 04:16:21 PM by JTR »
John Robbins

Online Bob Roller

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Re: color case question
« Reply #4 on: February 21, 2012, 05:06:05 PM »
It was used on Remington
Zouave"rifles and Colt revolvers that dated from the 1840's. I doubt if it was used by many if any individual gunmakers here in America on flintlocks. I see newly made flintlock rifles with it and to me,it simply doesn't belong on them.
Our art museum has a nice collection of long rifles and I see no sign of color hardening on them anywhere. I had a left hand Goulcher lock that was color cased and the plate went into a curve because of it. This lock was given to me in the 1950's.

Bob Roller

Offline Dphariss

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Re: color case question
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 09:44:53 PM »
As for Kentuckys', I don't think I've ever seen an original one with Color case hardened metal parts.
I think that's more of a 1840/60, and onward thing.

English or Euro stuff used it earlier, I think.

John

Color hardening of locks and such is documented back into the 18th century.
People find colors on internals of locks as well.
It is nearly impossible to do charcoal hardening PROPERLY and NOT get color to a greater or lessor extent.
Whether it was deliberately polished off or simply silvered out or wore out with handling over time its not 100% known by anyone.

Dan
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: color case question
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 09:54:55 PM »
Cyanide hardening is still used and will produce different colors and patterns than charcoal. It is less technical and requires less knowledge and skill.
Potassium Cyanide was discovered in 1807 so its not likely it was used prior to this date for anything.

The use of charcoal to make steel (blister steel) and case hardening was well known well before firearms I suspect.

Dan
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: color case question
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 10:42:24 PM »
As for Kentuckys', I don't think I've ever seen an original one with Color case hardened metal parts.
I think that's more of a 1840/60, and onward thing.

English or Euro stuff used it earlier, I think.

John

Color hardening of locks and such is documented back into the 18th century.
People find colors on internals of locks as well.
It is nearly impossible to do charcoal hardening PROPERLY and NOT get color to a greater or lessor extent.
Whether it was deliberately polished off or simply silvered out or wore out with handling over time its not 100% known by anyone.

Dan

Case hardening or carburizing was used at least as far as the 17th century and probably much earlier.  I've not heard it refered to as "color hardening".  That might imply some significance for the presence of colors which sometimes occur.  Do you have any period references for it being refered to as such?  Also as I've said before, depending on the process, it is very easy to produce a very good case without any colors.  Carburizing temperature and temperature prior to quench has a big impact.  I will sometimes get colors but more often get a gray color.  In either situation the case is very much acceptable.

Indicators of when a decorative process or style first showed up are often English and European firearms.  Even on these guns, case hardening seems to be much more of a 19th century treatment.  It may have showed up in the  late 18th century, but I don't recall seeing any examples.  Now this is not to say that an American lock couldn't have been case hardened, colors resulted, and were left on rather than taking the time to remove them.  Who knows.

Jim

Offline smart dog

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Re: color case question
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 11:35:16 PM »
Hi,
In his 1801 book "Cautions to Young Sportsmen" (available on Google books), Thomas Frankland gives credit to William Bailes as the first to use case-hardening colors on his locks.  Bailes died in 1766.  Of course that would be the English perspective.  He also relates that many sportsmen were aghast when servants cleaned their guns too vigorously and polished off the case colors.  From that passage I infer that case colors were very common by 1800 and many guns in collections today with bright polished lockplates may have originally had colors. 

dave
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: color case question
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 12:19:26 AM »
Interesting stuff Dave.  Thanks!

AeroE

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Re: color case question
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 12:49:50 AM »
Baked in charcoal from the bones of Whooping Cranes and Spotted Owls, quenched in the tears of virgins; that produces the best case hardening.


blunderbuss

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Re: color case question
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 12:51:57 AM »
  

  Hey Flintfan where was that double with the percussion locks/ flintlocks made? I've done allot of study as to when the conversion from flint to percussion took place and it's earlier than most think.

Offline smart dog

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Re: color case question
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2012, 12:57:01 AM »
Hi Flintfan,
Why do you think your Manton gun was made in the 1840's or late 1830's?  John Manton died in 1834 and Joe Manton died in 1835.  Of course they both had sons in the trade but the experimentation with percussion was mostly over by 1830.  Joe Manton created transitional locks with detonators as early as 1816.  Both brothers were making what we recognize as fully evolved percussion locks by 1828.

dave  
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Offline James Rogers

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Re: color case question
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2012, 01:15:38 AM »
Here is the quote Dave mentioned. This is the same author who credits Bailes with the iron rib.
I would think that by 1800 case colors would have been in vogue and could have been coming on in the latter part of the 18th century although I would not think it was exclusively used across the board.

" The late Duke of Kingston, of Sporting memory, had a favorite gun, on this construction, made by Bailes; who, if I mistake not, was the inventor of the Iron Rib, first introduced blue mounting and springs, and left the tints produced by case-hardening on the lock. It is unnecessary to point out the beauty of these tints, or the facility with which the work is kept clean, from the pellicle which is most highly converted into steel, and hardest, being retained on the surface; but many of the workmen themselves, though for fashion sake they put the blue colour on their springs, are ignorant of the advantage arising from it; and that watch springs, after being hardened and tempered, by polishing lose their elasticity, which is restored by blueing. (See Home's Essay on iron and steel.)"


« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 01:24:44 AM by James Rogers »

The other DWS

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Re: color case question
« Reply #14 on: February 23, 2012, 01:37:02 AM »
Interesting; that makes it sound like previously they had polished back any color that developed incidental to hardening. Leaving them colored saved labor/money for the builder.  good marketing to make an artistic statement of it.  Maybe color wasleft on the internals and the face polished back, until color became popular.

wonder if any of the early english makers listed colo(u)rs in their ads?

blunderbuss

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Re: color case question
« Reply #15 on: February 23, 2012, 02:19:22 AM »
 

  I don't know about case hardening color but the first ads (1700's) mention bluing and then later browning ,armor was also blued but over the years it's been polished off. The gunsmiths at Williamsburg state that they find blue on the bottom of some long rifle barrels. I to found blue on a weapon that was converted to percussion

The other DWS

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Re: color case question
« Reply #16 on: February 23, 2012, 03:37:40 AM »
At the risk of diverting the discussion on a tangent, and acknowledging that this may be a well-hoed field. (if so please direct me to past discussions if there are some particularly good ones)  Isn't brown an intermediate step in rust-bluing; and don't oxidized old high quality "blues" tend to revert to a brown" patina if given half decent care?
 I have seen any number of single shots from the 1880-90 era and a bit later the were originally factory blued that now show a nice brown "patina" on the exposed surfaces.

Admittedly an oiled flat textured brown makes more sense on a battle field or a hunting ground than a highly polished blue or bright metal as Braddock and others discovered.

Offline FlintFan

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Re: color case question
« Reply #17 on: February 23, 2012, 04:17:17 AM »
Hi Flintfan,
Why do you think your Manton gun was made in the 1840's or late 1830's?  John Manton died in 1834 and Joe Manton died in 1835.  Of course they both had sons in the trade but the experimentation with percussion was mostly over by 1830.  Joe Manton created transitional locks with detonators as early as 1816.  Both brothers were making what we recognize as fully evolved percussion locks by 1828.

dave  

Dave, you are most probably right.  I am trying to recall the estimate on the gun's date from memory from the last conversation I was a part of regarding it.  Unfortunately, I do not own the gun, but am a close acquaintance of it's current owner.  Believe me, I am doing all I can to twist arms that I might some day own it myself. 

I always thought that the 1830's estimate was somewhat late, your dates are probably more accurate.  The gun is marked Joseph Manton, London.  I can't recall if a street address is on the top rib, I'll have to remember to check next time I see it. 

Here is a picture of the gun.  Sorry for the poor quality, but it is a scan of a photograph.  The percussion hammers and detonators are also shown in the photo.


Offline Dphariss

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Re: color case question
« Reply #18 on: February 23, 2012, 05:40:17 PM »
Hi,
In his 1801 book "Cautions to Young Sportsmen" (available on Google books), Thomas Frankland gives credit to William Bailes as the first to use case-hardening colors on his locks.  Bailes died in 1766.  Of course that would be the English perspective.  He also relates that many sportsmen were aghast when servants cleaned their guns too vigorously and polished off the case colors.  From that passage I infer that case colors were very common by 1800 and many guns in collections today with bright polished lockplates may have originally had colors.  

dave
Thanks for the citation.
I will have to break down and read Hanger sometime.
There was a citation, on this web site I think, in the last few months of some maker, perhaps in France doing colors on locks in the 18th century, mid IIRC.
As I stated before if charcoal hardening is done RIGHT there will likely be color that will need be removed if the desired color is shiney. The same is true of cyanide. Though cyanide was NOT used in Colonial America and likely not until the mid-late 19th century and the only thing common in the two processes is the heat and the quench.
There are others, here, who have reported finding colors on the inside surfaces.
But given that colors can fade rapidly and wear with frightening ease. Not finding colors on guns is not surprising.
So if the part was charcoal hardened it may have originally been colored. But if they screwed up the quench and let air get to the parts as they dropped from the pack they might be so ugly as to require polishing.
So if the parts were case hardened it probably came out of the quench with some color on the part.
Was the color such that the parts were uniform or was the job done in  manner that required it to be polished off for cosmetic reasons. The choice is yours.
But from Dave's post and others it appears that colored locks and surely other parts may have been more common than many would like apparently having subscribed to the shiny lock side of the argument, something that was "fact" before anyone bothered to even look into it adequately.
It was an assumption that became fact.
Casehardening apparently goes back 2500-3000 years. I found this in a 10 second search of the WWW.
http://www.touregypt.net/science.htm
"One which has fortunately survived presents several points of interest: it is an iron tool from the masonry of the great Pyramid of Khufu at Giza, and thus presumably dates from the time when the Pyramid was being built, i.e. about 2900 B.C. This tool was subjected to chemical
analysis and was found to contain combined carbon, which suggests that it may have been composed of steel. By 666 B.C. the process of case-hardening was in use for the edges of iron tools, but the story that the Egyptians had some secret means of hardening copper and
bronze that has since been lost is probably without foundation
."

Then
http://www.oakeshott.org/metal.html
"Carburizing wrought iron is often referred to as case hardening and has been known to metal workers from antiquity.13...."

"13. Williams, Dr. Alan R. & K. R. Maxwell-Hyslop, Ancient Steel from Egypt, Journal of Archeological Science, 1976, London."


So thinking that casehardening was some new process even in medieval Europe is simply myth.

Dan
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 05:44:24 PM by Dphariss »
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Offline Dphariss

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Re: color case question
« Reply #19 on: February 23, 2012, 05:46:47 PM »
 

  I don't know about case hardening color but the first ads (1700's) mention bluing and then later browning ,armor was also blued but over the years it's been polished off. The gunsmiths at Williamsburg state that they find blue on the bottom of some long rifle barrels. I to found blue on a weapon that was converted to percussion

The English often call "bluing" "browning" and etc etc.
Read "Firearms Bluing"  Angier.

Dan
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Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: color case question
« Reply #20 on: February 23, 2012, 06:03:24 PM »
One more time.  Pack hardening parts does not necessarily form colors even with a metallurgically sound process that doesn't form scale etc. on the surface.  Depending on factors such as carburizing temperature, temperature before quench, air exposure prior to quench etc. colors may not result.  I have processed parts and often not obtained colors.  I did not have any scale or any heavy surface oxidation either.  Basically just a grey color results which can be polished off just as easily as colors.  Others I know have had the same experiences.  It is a falicy to believe that pack hardening done correctly will always produce colors.  I have experienced this performing carburizing on gun parts and parts in an industrial setting as well.  No colors do not equal bad process. 

Offline FlintFan

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Re: color case question
« Reply #21 on: February 23, 2012, 06:11:18 PM »
I think too many people are getting "case hardening" confused with "color case hardening".  Case hardening has obviously been around for centuries.  Just by looking at the gun trade alone, case hardening of iron was necessary starting with the wheellock to make the lock produce sparks.  Colors produced by simple case hardening can range from none (most common) to full coverage seen on London best guns (very rare).  Special techniques, equipment, and materials are needed to consistently produce case hardening colors on gun parts that the makers were "intending" to apply to the parts.  I think the original question that started this thread was when did gun makers start going that?  

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: color case question
« Reply #22 on: February 23, 2012, 06:19:03 PM »
Yes, Flintfan, I agree.  Can anyone show a picture of a 18th century lock with case colors?  Now, I don't doubt the reference cited previously, but still am a bit puzzled, why 18th century examples are not encountered more.  I will admit that very late 18th century English gunmaking is not not an area of interest and one that i spend much time researching, however.  Now, I understand cleaning, polishing etc. will damage case colors, but as well as some guns in English and European collections are cared for, and considering some were hardly used, I would think some evidence of them would remain.  Colors on 19th century examples have certainly remained.

Jim
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 06:38:39 PM by Jim Kibler »

Offline James Rogers

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Re: color case question
« Reply #23 on: February 23, 2012, 06:48:43 PM »
Ditto Jim

The other DWS

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Re: color case question
« Reply #24 on: February 23, 2012, 07:41:48 PM »
I don't want to terminate aan interesting and informative discussion at all.  but am I accurate in the following assumptions:
A   hardening iron, including surface hardening, ie "case hardening" dates back to antiquity
B   surface hardening of iron (or later steel), by heating in an oxygen-deprived carbon-rich environment to certain temperatures followed by proper quenching creates the skin surface or "case" hardening.
C   incidental to the process of case-hardening colors can appear on occasion and that with very carefully controlled and manipulated processes the colors can be made to appear on a consistent basis

D   Since the evolving firearms industry needed hardened iron and later steel surfaces case-hardening processes were used creating "colors" incidental to that process.
E  at some yet to be determined time the case hardening process had become precise and standardized enough that "colors" (could) beca(o)me marketable as an option to a polished hard surface.

Is this valid so far?    If so the question still stands about when point E occurred.
 And If/When it had a recognizable impact on the North American gun crafting community.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 09:40:17 PM by The other DWS »