Author Topic: .54 Barrel question  (Read 21890 times)

frontier gander

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.54 Barrel question
« on: February 22, 2012, 07:20:05 AM »
Guys I got a custom barrel that someone put together for a TC Renegade. Zero markings on it. Great looking barrel with what looks like .008 - .010" deep rifling.

The problem I am having though is that the lands measured roughly .534" and the .530" round ball and .018 are impossible to get down this barrel. The patches come out clean after shooting, but by the time i beat the ball down into the throat of the bore, its pretty boogered up.

Some have said to try the .015" or even the .010" patches but I just don't know. That .534" land to land measurement just threw me off.

I even tried the hornady great plains bullets which are a little firm to load in the original factory barrel, but this custom barrel, holy cow! My hand was numb after beating on the short starter.

Thoughts?

Dew

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2012, 07:43:10 AM »
Might try a .526 ball. Just a thought. I'm sure some of the other guys will have some better ideas...Dew

Offline Don Getz

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2012, 04:10:54 PM »
Is it a six or eight groove barrel?  It's difficult to get a land to land measurement unless it is an even number of grooves.
Don

roundball

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2012, 04:25:43 PM »
.530"s with an .018" always loaded fine in my normal T/C factory barrels when I had them so that barrel does seem tight.

As another ball size alternative, I use .520"s in my .54cal smoothbore and I get them from a commercial caster (below)...excellent quality and prices...a lot less than places like Track, and certainly much less than Hornady .520"s.

Eddie May Round Balls
159 Ridley Rd.
Chatsworth, GA 30705
Cellphone = 706-581-8225

(Eddie does not have a website or use Email so you have to call him)

Offline Dphariss

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2012, 05:19:18 PM »
Guys I got a custom barrel that someone put together for a TC Renegade. Zero markings on it. Great looking barrel with what looks like .008 - .010" deep rifling.

The problem I am having though is that the lands measured roughly .534" and the .530" round ball and .018 are impossible to get down this barrel. The patches come out clean after shooting, but by the time i beat the ball down into the throat of the bore, its pretty boogered up.

Some have said to try the .015" or even the .010" patches but I just don't know. That .534" land to land measurement just threw me off.

I even tried the hornady great plains bullets which are a little firm to load in the original factory barrel, but this custom barrel, holy cow! My hand was numb after beating on the short starter.

Thoughts?

Lyman sells .526 RB moulds or used too.
If the crown is good and the lube an actual lubricant it should not be that difficult. I load heavy patch and balls about .005 under without a starter.

Swaged balls often have a over sized belt on them.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

cahil_2

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2012, 05:25:20 PM »
I had the same problem with my trade gun.   I went to a .526 ball with a .015 patch and it loads nice and easy with that combination and shoots well too.

Daryl

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #6 on: February 22, 2012, 06:30:34 PM »
The crown, as Dan brought up is usually the culprit in this situation - or the bore has been shot with pyrodex and allowed to rot a bit. The pits will create fouling traps and a rough surface for loading. The pits caused by perchlorate are sharp edged and will grab a patch, but usually tear it as well. Since they come out in good shape, perhaps the crown just needs a little smoothing.

I like a 'softer' more rounded corner crown, with the edges of the crown a little more rounded than they appear in Dan's picture. Since the barrel will come off easily, chucking it in a lathe, spinning it and just using a bit of wet-or-dry or emery 320grit pressed against the muzzle's crown with your finger will smooth it and make loading tight combinations quite easy.  If a lathe is not handy, just clamp it in a vice and use the end of your thumb to press the paper or emery cloth into the muzzle and rotate your hand, every 10 seconds or so, rotate the barrel 90 degrees. This will keep the crown even and centred.  Depending on the crown that is already cut, as in Dan's picture, softening, or radiusing that crown may take only 15 seconds or a couple minutes depending on it's condition.

Here, we all use a .005" under ball and a .018" to .0225" patch loading without difficulty. Not wanting to use a .010" or other ridiculous thickness patch is good and seaking advice on how to go about it is also good.  All of us use a substancial short starter as well and we all use the rifle's 3/8" or whatever diameter hickory rod.
Note, the horn in this picture holds over 1 1/2 pounds of powder.  It is a large horn.  The reason we use moose antler (bases) is it is heavy and hard. Note the short stud on the starter handles. We used to just smack the ball into the bore, but I found doing that, reduces accuracy minimally, due to the off centre force moving lead sideways, slightly. Using the stud (hitting the top of the handle with the palm) makes the entry straighter almost like using a bullet starter - but not quite that accurately.

How the ball is started makes a difference and can be noted by using a stip of patch material, pushing or smacking the ball into the bore, with withdrawing it to check how centered the ball was, by the rifling marks. One blow starts the ball - not tap, tap, tap with a hammer or bang bang, bang with a mallet as I've seen in some videos. Hitting the ball more than one blow deforms it's upper surface, albeit the nose is of less importance than it's bottom. Every starter I use, has a cupped end, that causes no damage to the ball.
  


Smoothing the crown on a muzzle.


.45 and .58 muzzles





All of these crowns allow pressing the patched ball down into the bore with little strain on the rifle's stock, just using a "choked" rod or the short starter stud with the large knob in your hand.  I prefer to use the starter as it's faster, easier and pushes a perfectly centred ball down some 6" before putting the rod on it. This helps 'save' the rod from my hamfistedness. (is that a word?)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2012, 08:59:00 PM by Daryl »

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #7 on: February 22, 2012, 10:02:29 PM »
Thanks guys, I appreciate the help.

I will try to get a picture of the crown. Its just super tight as heck at that point but once i get past it, its still firm but i can push the load down fine.

I will certainly get some pictures of the crown and let you guys decide on what i should do with it.

New barrel, no rust or pitting, so thats not an issue with the bore.

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #8 on: February 22, 2012, 10:04:22 PM »
8 lands/grooves

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 02:27:32 AM »
THANK YOU!  I spent about 5 minutes total with 220 and 600grit sand paper on the crown and it loaded firmly but did not need the ball starter to pound it down!  Will make some new patch lube as well and see if it helps out any.


The crown, as Dan brought up is usually the culprit in this situation - or the bore has been shot with pyrodex and allowed to rot a bit. The pits will create fouling traps and a rough surface for loading. The pits caused by perchlorate are sharp edged and will grab a patch, but usually tear it as well. Since they come out in good shape, perhaps the crown just needs a little smoothing.

I like a 'softer' more rounded corner crown, with the edges of the crown a little more rounded than they appear in Dan's picture. Since the barrel will come off easily, chucking it in a lathe, spinning it and just using a bit of wet-or-dry or emery 320grit pressed against the muzzle's crown with your finger will smooth it and make loading tight combinations quite easy.  If a lathe is not handy, just clamp it in a vice and use the end of your thumb to press the paper or emery cloth into the muzzle and rotate your hand, every 10 seconds or so, rotate the barrel 90 degrees. This will keep the crown even and centred.  Depending on the crown that is already cut, as in Dan's picture, softening, or radiusing that crown may take only 15 seconds or a couple minutes depending on it's condition.

Here, we all use a .005" under ball and a .018" to .0225" patch loading without difficulty. Not wanting to use a .010" or other ridiculous thickness patch is good and seaking advice on how to go about it is also good.  All of us use a substancial short starter as well and we all use the rifle's 3/8" or whatever diameter hickory rod.
Note, the horn in this picture holds over 1 1/2 pounds of powder.  It is a large horn.  The reason we use moose antler (bases) is it is heavy and hard. Note the short stud on the starter handles. We used to just smack the ball into the bore, but I found doing that, reduces accuracy minimally, due to the off centre force moving lead sideways, slightly. Using the stud (hitting the top of the handle with the palm) makes the entry straighter almost like using a bullet starter - but not quite that accurately.

How the ball is started makes a difference and can be noted by using a stip of patch material, pushing or smacking the ball into the bore, with withdrawing it to check how centered the ball was, by the rifling marks. One blow starts the ball - not tap, tap, tap with a hammer or bang bang, bang with a mallet as I've seen in some videos. Hitting the ball more than one blow deforms it's upper surface, albeit the nose is of less importance than it's bottom. Every starter I use, has a cupped end, that causes no damage to the ball.
  


Smoothing the crown on a muzzle.


.45 and .58 muzzles





All of these crowns allow pressing the patched ball down into the bore with little strain on the rifle's stock, just using a "choked" rod or the short starter stud with the large knob in your hand.  I prefer to use the starter as it's faster, easier and pushes a perfectly centred ball down some 6" before putting the rod on it. This helps 'save' the rod from my hamfistedness. (is that a word?)

Daryl

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 04:27:05 AM »
Firmly is 'spot-on'. Glad it worked.

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 02:22:09 AM »
Shot her with 80gr Pyrodex RS, .530 ball and .010" patch. Patches were shreds but the accuracy was still surprisingly really darn good! I will have to order some .016" pillow tick and then give her another go. Figured out the twist  today as well, 1:60 which will be great for patched balls. Coming along slow, but steady.

Daryl

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #12 on: February 25, 2012, 03:42:06 AM »
Please don't use Pyrodex.  The bore will most likely suffer.

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #13 on: February 25, 2012, 07:44:57 AM »
Thats an old wives tale. I've been shooting it since i got into black powder shooting, its never harmed a bore on any of my muzzle loaders. Great powder thats consistent and proves excellent accuracy.  Barrels are ruined by poor cleaning and lack of blackpowder knowledge.

Bob F

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #14 on: February 25, 2012, 03:55:38 PM »
I get my pillow ticking from Wally World.  Real inexpensive and I love the look the older woman in the fabric section gives me when she asks what I am making with it.  Just remember to wash it to remove the sizing.

roundball

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #15 on: February 25, 2012, 04:41:20 PM »

"...Barrels are ruined by poor cleaning and lack of blackpowder knowledge..."


Speaking only for myself, I never had a problem with Pyrodex.

Pyrodex-RS was all I used for 8 years in  in .45/.50/.54cal T/C caplocks and bores were always like a mirror.  I cleaned with steaming hot soapy water and hot water rinse, being fanatical about keeping a bore 100% squeaky clean, and always assumed that accounted for it.

When I switched to Flintlocks, I had 8-10 pounds of Pyrodex on hand from a year end close out sale and used all that up in duplex/layered loads plinking at the range...(20grns Goex 3F, the rest Pyrodex) and it was always reliable, accurate, etc...used those Flint barrels for right at 10 years.   

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #16 on: February 25, 2012, 05:15:58 PM »
As long as there is real black powder around,you need NO artificial powders.
The stuff IS destructive and I know for a fact that it is not always possible to clean a barrel properly. Several years ago,I raised the question about perchlorated powders on the <BP-L>list and because it was considered as a genuine inquiry,the moderators allowed it. There were a number of VERY knowledgeable people that posted answers about the destructive nature of these powders but the really interesting one was that the fumes or smoke are LETHAL and if you want to dispatch yourself,simply get into a pantry or closet and ignite a cup of this stuff and you will quietly leave this life without making a horrible mess to be cleaned up.
REAL black powder can be shipped to your door so there is NO GOOD reason to consider this artficial stuff.
   The next subject is "stiff"springs. They are a guaranteed nasty experience waiting to happen.
A spring must be able to flex in both the lower and the upper limbs to work properly and this alone will eleminate a "stiff"spring. There IS a difference between a strong spring and a "stiff" spring but the lock mechanism MUST be designed to accomodate the strong spring.
NONE of them are desgned for a "stiff: spring.
I have seen and had phone calls from people who bought some of the first locks with cast mainsprings wanting me to make new forged springs and I didn't want the work nor the bitching about having to pay for the time it takes to make one. On locks with linked mainsprings,the link or claw,usually the claw on the spring would break due to stiff materials being used in them and then the spring came down hard and took a strip of wood out from under the lock mortise.I saw a picture of such an event and it was a spectacular stock with more stripes per inch than I ever saw.
The current discussion on frizzen springs and rebounders that break flints is interesting.
I have in my hand as I write this,a Jim Chambers late Ketland. I made a linked mechanism for it and have no problem with rebounds.The flint is a white agate from Guenter Stifter in Germany of about 5/8" and it impacts the frizzen about 1/2"below the top and does its scraping and releases about 1/4"from the pan cover. It throws more than enough sparks and NO rebounds at all that can be seen with the naked eye. I have made 4 of these locks and there is nothing wrong with them that has been reported. I think they may be a bit picky as to positioning the flint and in this case it is flat side up. One thing about these German agates,you can tell which side IS the flat side and they are uniform in size.
Enough for now.
 
Bob Roller
 

roundball

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #17 on: February 25, 2012, 06:09:14 PM »

"...simply get into a pantry or closet and ignite a cup of this stuff..."


 ;D   ;D
Thanks for the heads up, I'll be sure never to do that...walking across the street without looking both ways can get you killed too
 ;D   ;D


In practical terms, I'm pretty sure that a huge number of metric tons of Pyrodex have been successfully used by 100s of thousands (millions?) of people over the past 25 years with no problems at all...still in wide spread use today

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #18 on: February 25, 2012, 06:54:21 PM »
What I repeated on my posting was about suicide,not some distracted person getting hit by a motor vehicle or worse,as happened to a local year old two weeks ago,walking on a busy coal hauler's railroad right of way while listening to a radio.
   As far as the Pyrodex is concerned.I don't think I have ever seen a can of it at a shooting match anywhere. Also the "metric tons" and the huge number of people? The past 25 years?
Not likely. I will rely on the opinions of chemists who know far more than I about these ersatz powders.

Bob Roller

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #19 on: February 25, 2012, 06:57:35 PM »
Correction.I meant to say a local 16 year old who was on a coal haulers railroad right of way.
The horror was witnessed by grade schoolers waiting on a school bus.

Bob Roller

Daryl

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2012, 07:08:16 PM »
Have a friend in Missouri who used nothing by Pyrodex. I've watched him clean his TC's after every day out hunting (guided here in BC) before he'd do anything else. He used hot, virtually boiling hot water & soap just as some have suggested is necessary with perchlorate powders. He always dried and oiled his guns.  His gun was a few years old when I first saw it and the bore looked 'patchy' to me in looking down the muzzle. The first shot was ALWAYS difficult to load for him, but after that, it got easier - I assume as the goop ox yoke used filled the rough spots.
He then took both is barrels to a local gun smith and had them re-blued as the bluing was wearing. To do this, the 'smith' pulled the plugs, then blued the barrels. Once the plugs were out, it was easy to see why loading was difficult for that first shot- the bores were very badly pitted at the breech, up to about 3/4's of the barrel's length - both of them.

The owner phoned me asking if if thought the bluing had caused the pits and I said no- gun barrels are blued every day, and when done correctly as this fellow undoubtedly did, the process does not ruin the barrels. He said he was going to sue the gun smith as he was sure the fellow had ruined his two barrels. I told him it was probably due to the perchlorate's in the pyrodex. Chlorates are excessively corrosive- chlorate's are who primers used to be corrosive- anyone besides Bob and I remember corrosive primers- how much perchlorate do you think is in a primer, as opposed to 17% of your powder charge?  Well, the barrel owner asked more peopleabout his barrels and then didn't try to sue the gun smith.

He did have Taylor make him a couple new rifles. One of them had 2 barrels. Taylor instructed him NOT to use Pyrodex. He did and ended up rotting a hole right through the breech, which cut wood in the barrel channel. The hold was amazing.  He send the gun back for warantee work and both bores are badly pitted - ruined/destroyed.
This fellow appeared to be cleaning them just as RB said - yet rotted not only his bores, but right through a breech- at that spot, a good 1/8" of steel eaten through.  Also, what was evident, was that the pits are craters- with sharp edges, like the material, the steel, was dissolved from that spot. Some very VERY deep.

The fellow wrote to Mike Nesbit, who told him that all the damage to his gun was caused by the perchlorate's in the Pyrodex. That, Dan Pharris's and Mad Monk's teachings are good enough for me.

So - use it if you want. I sure won't.
« Last Edit: February 25, 2012, 09:57:41 PM by Daryl »

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2012, 08:45:29 PM »
how one man treats his muzzys after shooting is his way. All of my bores look brand new. My flintlock though does have a tiny bit of pitting down where the Goex sat for a week after i went out of town without being able to clean it.

Goex is hard for me to keep in stock, i do a LOT of shooting and pyrodex is been some darn good stuff over the years.

Come cleaning time i always flush the barrel twice. Doesnt make sense to use one bucket full of warm soapy salt water and then put the gun away in storage.

Offline Frizzen

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2012, 09:28:05 PM »
Yep, Pyrodex is about the worst thing you could put in your gun.
The Pistol Shooter

frontier gander

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2012, 02:01:39 AM »
80gr 2F Goex, Not bad bad, but not good IMO.


90gr with .015" patch and a .018 patch used as a buffer to protect the main patch. I should'a stopped after shot 4 as the bore was getting tight.


Left: .015" patch with 80gr Goex 2f. Right: .015" patch with 90gr Goex and protected with a buffer patch. A big improvement and once i buy some .54cal wads, the patches should look pristine.




FRJ

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Re: .54 Barrel question
« Reply #24 on: March 08, 2012, 02:29:07 AM »
I have a Lyman GPR that I started off shooting Pyrodex in. EVERY TIME it was shot It was cleaned within an hour with boiling water and dishwashing soap. I mean cleaned and cleaned again, shinny bright. The ne xt day there would be rust in  the barrel. Cleaning it again with cold water and patching it dry and then using Balistol did nothing to stop the rusting. I am waiting for a new barrel as I type this!!!!!!!
Do what you want its your money but I will NEVER put anything but real black powder down the barrels of my muzzleloaders!!!!!!! FRJ