Author Topic: long rifles at Kings Mtn  (Read 16532 times)

The other DWS

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long rifles at Kings Mtn
« on: February 23, 2012, 12:25:18 AM »
Moderator, I do not know if this belongs here or in another section,  move as needed please.

Is there any documentation, as to what styles/types/schools would have been present on the Kings Mountain battle field?  If one had a compulsion to build a pair of "Kings Mtn" guns,  what would you select to pair with a Ferguson (assuming there actually were any of them present) bearing in mind that all the forces on both sides of the engagement were Colonists or their descendants.

I am sure there are bunches of rifles in various museums labled as "belonging to honored old local pioneer/settler Billy Doe who's Grandfather carried it at the Battle of KIngs Mtn"  Even if it is an 1830 style rifle.

What would have been available in that region at that time?

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 01:23:23 AM »
You might want to take a look in the latest "Traditions" from the CLA. There is an article, (extremely well done, I might add), that has early Carolina guns shown. One that is a good candidate for what you want is the Thomas Tileston, 1773 gun. It appears to be the 'real thing.' You might contact Guy Monfort who wrote the article to see what he has to say on the subject. Then, there is always the wealth of talent and information among the members here who will step forward to help. It is very likely that you will get so much information that you will have a difficult time on deciding what you will do. Good luck, sounds like fun, and oh yes, please keep us informed on how it all works out.
Dick

oakridge

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 03:53:08 AM »
Thanks for bringing this up. I've been wondering the same thing. One of my ancestors fought at King's Mtn. (on the winning side) with a militia unit he formed. He had moved to NC from VA, several years before the war. I assume he would have carried a gun of local manufacture, or one he brought from VA. What would be the possible choices?

Offline woodsrunner

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 04:26:18 AM »
This is very interesting! I hope it takes off!

My square breech "mixmaster" attributed to the Carolina Colonies...would it be a possible candidate?

Online rich pierce

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #4 on: February 23, 2012, 07:39:47 AM »
You might want to take a look in the latest "Traditions" from the CLA. There is an article, (extremely well done, I might add), that has early Carolina guns shown. One that is a good candidate for what you want is the Thomas Tileston, 1773 gun. It appears to be the 'real thing.' You might contact Guy Monfort who wrote the article to see what he has to say on the subject.


There was a lot of discussion about the Tileston gun when it first came out as it is sort of an outlier.  I'll try to find the discussion.  Seem to recall there was a Thos Tileston in New England.    Mystery as to whether the furniture was forged here or imported.  Very nice looking rifle.
Andover, Vermont

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2012, 08:26:46 AM »
Rich, I have seen the Tileston rifle up close and personal at the NRA show in Phoenix. The owner then, and I assume the same individual still owns it, had done some reseach into the gun and its maker. I believe that he had primary research documents indicating that Tileston was working in Southern VA, though I don't remember where. Seems to me that he was making militla/military arms, too.
I doubt that much iron funiture was imported and the one 'iron gun' that I own has heavy musket like iron furniture which is almost certainly from Europe. I will try to get some photos of that one cobbled together and post them. It however, is from the period of the F & I War, or before.
If Dickert rifles could find their way to King's Mountain, as it is alleged, then a more locally made gun could make an appearance there, as well.
Dick

Online rich pierce

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2012, 04:57:36 PM »
Thanks, my friend.  Sometimes when something comes out that doesn't fit our collective experience (till then) folks don't know what to make of it.  I really like the Tileston rifle; it would be a good one to build, but would take a real fine smith to make the furniture.  I'd have to job that one out, lol.
Andover, Vermont

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2012, 07:04:17 PM »
Quote
If Dickert rifles could find their way to King's Mountain, as it is alleged, then a more locally made gun could make an appearance there, as well.
Dick
I love these discussions! All pure speculation but still fascinating to me having had 1 or 2 kinfolk there.

There was a descendant of the Dickert family on ALR several years ago and IIRC his ancestor family lived in the Washington County area of VA. I think he told of his ties to the PA Dickert's. Anyway I think he told that they were also gunmakers. I will see if I can find the topic.

Also there was discussions regarding the Dickert name had become colloquial names used for rifles other than the ones made by Jacob Dickert. Much like Frigidaire being the common name for all refrigerators regardless of who made it. I will see what I can find on those discussions as well.

Dennis
 
« Last Edit: February 23, 2012, 08:27:18 PM by Dennis Glazener »
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Offline Mike Gahagan

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #8 on: February 23, 2012, 07:55:31 PM »
There is a gun in the Smith-McDowell House Museum in Asheville,NC that belonged to Daniel Smith that fought at Kings Mountain as a Captain in the North Carolina Militia.It is believed that he used it not only there but also to fight the Cherokee.It is a plain "Poor Boy" with a smooth bore appox.16 ga. and about 56" long,no butt plate or entry thimble,English style trigger guard and walnut stock.It had at one time been converted to percussion but the Museum had someone put back to flint with a Siler replacement.The whole gun is 6 feet long.The guy that contacted me about building a copy of it for him said that Daniel Smith was his 6 th or 7th great grandfather and that he had researched all of his history,and is very convinced that he used that gun at Kings Mountain.If this is all true then it shows that some of the guns used there were just plain every day firearms.

I have some pictures that I took of through the display case and they are not that good,but would be glad to share them if some one would post them.I can`t get Photobucket to get along with my computers Java Script,at least that is what they tell me.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #9 on: February 23, 2012, 08:12:50 PM »
I would not be surprised to find that the TG at least and maybe the BP from the Tileston were imported from England. However.... ?
England could produce iron hardware cheaper than America could and I would expect it to be of a quality like that on the Tileston. However, this would require a market and it would appear the market for iron American style rifle mounts might have been slight, it certainly would have been in PA.

Could it be that the penchant for iron mounted rifles in the south started with iron mounted English imports in the 1750s or even before? But where are the survivors? Would have to be some I would think...
Just some interesting speculation.

Dan
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The other DWS

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #10 on: February 23, 2012, 09:32:50 PM »
Some of the trade gun research that takes a broader look than just the French/NW/HB tradition has tried to study the middle and southern colonies. But since a lot of that work is archaeologically driven, and on the "dug-ups" they have run into a chronic problem with a lack of iron mounted guns for documentation---duh!  iron rusts away. A few that have been discovered in extremely poor condition seem to be of english origin.  There also seems to be some evidence from trade documentation that some trade in commercial trade guns was carried on from english suppliers, and probably in iron mounted arms.   I personally suspect that most of the earlier arms, both "trade" and higher grade settler arms in the southern colonies would have been imported due to the mother countries' mercantilist policies. 
I would speculate that american arms making traditions pretty well followed population movement.  Men at Kings Mt'n (to get back on-topic) from the tidewater and piedmont might have been somewhat more likely to be equipped with imported English arms, or at least arms reflecting a more "english" tradition.   (I don't know how the Williamsburg data and tradition fit into this). the "over-the-mountain men" may have reflected more of a Pennsylvania-type of equipage --- or an amalgam of PA and Piedmont.    again I'm strictly speculating.

Offline mr. no gold

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2012, 11:09:57 PM »
Walter Cline displayed a rifle in his book on the muzzloading rifle that purportedly had been owned and used by John Sevier down in that country.  As I recall, it is a plain gun which appeared to have iron furniture. Does this ring a bell with anyone? It seemed to be a rather small gun with a really big lock on it, as I remember it. Don't know if Sevier fought at the Mountain or not, but this gun could be representative of what was used at the time.
Dick

Offline T*O*F

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2012, 11:28:47 PM »
Quote
Don't know if Sevier fought at the Mountain or not, but this gun could be representative of what was used at the time.
A reference I never see mentioned here is "The Annals of Tennessee" by J.M.G. Ramsey originally printed in 1853.  Ramsey's father was one of the early settlers in Holston and was prominent in the rebellious State of Franklin.  Ramsey wrote this book using his first hand experiences and personal interviews with the "OverMountain Boys" who were friends of his father, including Sevier.

There is a whole chapter on the participation of the OverMountain Boys at King's Mtn and other battles.  The book was reprinted in 1999 and is a wealth of Ist person information on East TN before it became a state.  It's about 50 bucks and a valuble asset to anyone interested in that period.
Dave Kanger

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Offline bgf

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #13 on: February 23, 2012, 11:52:58 PM »
Constance Skinner's "Pioneers of the Old Southwest" is online and a fun read, a little dated but still interesting:
http://www.gutenberg.org/files/3073/3073-h/3073-h.htm#2HCH0009

Yes, Sevier was instrumental in the King's Mountain expedition, along with Shelby.  Shelby got a nickname for it, but Sevier was already quite well-known as "Nolichucky Jack".  I would guess that Sevier's rifle that Cline had was a later one (Sevier had a long and tempestuous career), but would love to see a picture. 

Offline heinz

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #14 on: February 24, 2012, 12:25:02 AM »
The Dickert allusion comes, I believe, from the Draper manuscripts.  They are an excellent but second hand source.  The phrase that Draper uses is "Deckhard" not Dickert so your guess is as good as mine as to who he really meant.  And he just might have got it slightly wrong based on who he talked  to and what they actually knew about the rifles.  We do have a pretty good inference some iron mounted rifles were around, along with a lot of brass mounted ones.  You might want to take a look at the General Martin papers on this time period in this area to get some idea of the rough and ready equipment carried by the militia and the backcounry folk. (http://www.josephmartinchapter.org/patriots.html)
kind regards, heinz

Offline G-Man

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #15 on: February 24, 2012, 12:43:45 AM »
Lots going on in this discussion and it could take off in a lot of directions.  So I’ll throw some thoughts into the mix based on things I came across when working on the article.

Certainly there were other types of weapons than rifles in use at King’s Mountain – probably just about any form of flintlock longarm or pistol you can imagine.  But what strikes you when you start reading through period accounts and documents regarding the war in the southern back country  is that: 1) by the time of the war there was a well-established regional and cultural tendency toward rifle guns – and they are very clear in distinguishing between rifles and other longarms in most period accounts; 2) Based on period accounts most of the patriot troops at King’s Mountain were carrying rifles; and, 3) a sizable part of Ferguson’s force – some accounts say most – were also carrying rifles – keep in mind they were mostly from the same culture and region as those they were fighting.

Most of the Patriot troops there came from the Carolina backcountry, (that includes the overmountain areas of what is now Tennessee) and southwest Virginia.  Some of these people had been residing in the region for a full generation or more.  So you could carry that idea to expect these troops to most likely be using guns of regional manufacture – and there was extensive manfucture by that time in the region and those areas surrounding the region – from the southern end of the Shenandoah Valley, southward to the Carolina piedmont, and even likely westward over the mountains in what is now East Tennessee.  And points between. 

However, other troops were from families that had come in more recently, and of those who did, most would have come south via the Great Wagon Road, so actually a rifle from anywhere between Pennsylvania and piedmont North or South Carolina would be appropriate, as well as some locally made pieces from the deep backcountry or mountain areas.  What I am getting at here is that you likely have a wide range of options.

What did such guns look like?  Well, that depends which angle you want to take with your idea. Should it be iron or brass mounted?  From what I have found, the answer is “yes.”

Based on surviving examples of pre-1780 rifles it is likely that you would have seen a lot of brass at Kings Mountain.  Really any brass mounted rifle of the pre-1780 era would be a candidate.  Take a look at the famous “Haymaker” rifle, the “Free Born” rifle, or other such pieces if you want to keep it southern.  Or maybe RCA-42, the Brass Barreled Rifle, etc.   Or, a piece from farther north along the Great Wagon Road – even a Dickert or a Shroyer, etc. 

A local or regional iron mounted rifle?  Again, I think yes.  We know there were gunsmiths working in the Appalachian region – including what is now upper east Tennessee - before the Revolution.  And we know one of William Campbell’s (Virginia) troops lost an iron -mounted rifle – with a small bore and a small lock -  in Williamsburg in 1776.  The Old Holston gun is an iron mounted example thought by many to be a possible piece from the region made prior to 1780. 

And iron does not have to mean Appalachian – piedmont North Carolina makers and makers as far north as Rockbridge County VA made iron mounted rifles and likely were making them by the time of Kings Mountain.  The top gun on the two page spread on iron mounted rifles in American Tradition (attributed western Catawba Valley), although tough to date and likely a later piece, does show the hand of a maker trained in the pre-Rev War style one might expect to see at the time of King’s Mountain – i.e. the open bow guard, short squared Germanic style tang, carving, strong triangular architectural lines and flat buttplate typically indicate early features.  And there are other iron mounted piedmont Carolina pieces in Bill Ivey’s book that appear to plausibly date to the 1780s – including a piece with a triggerguard that was replaced with brass that was reportedly used at Guilford Court House (1781).

As to how iron mounts became preferred in some areas – probably a variety of reasons that depended on the area and timeframe.  We need to be careful about overgeneralizing – there were some regions where they made a lot of both types of rifles – like piedmont Carolina and some areas of Virginia – and both types were popular – and regions where there was a preponderance of, if not a preference for,  iron mounts.  So the reason for why an iron mounted gun was made in Rockbridge County in 1780 might be different from the reason an iron mounted rifle was made in East Tennessee in the same era – as well as different from the reason for why an iron mounted rifle was made in that same area of East Tennessee in 1820.  Different times, places, customers, resources and limitations….

Fun to think about this stuff!

Guy


Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #16 on: February 24, 2012, 12:51:56 AM »
Guy, there were gunsmiths in Charles Town and Beech Island areas of SC and undoubtedly in Savannah and Augusta GA before and during the revolution.....perhaps some guns from SC and GA also made it there....along with lots of Carolina trade guns.. Don't you think?
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Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #17 on: February 24, 2012, 12:51:56 AM »
There is a gun in the Smith-McDowell House Museum in Asheville,NC that belonged to Daniel Smith that fought at Kings Mountain as a Captain in the North Carolina Militia.It is believed that he used it not only there but also to fight the Cherokee.It is a plain "Poor Boy" with a smooth bore appox.16 ga. and about 56" long,no butt plate or entry thimble,English style trigger guard and walnut stock.It had at one time been converted to percussion but the Museum had someone put back to flint with a Siler replacement.The whole gun is 6 feet long.The guy that contacted me about building a copy of it for him said that Daniel Smith was his 6 th or 7th great grandfather and that he had researched all of his history,and is very convinced that he used that gun at Kings Mountain.If this is all true then it shows that some of the guns used there were just plain every day firearms.

I have some pictures that I took of through the display case and they are not that good,but would be glad to share them if some one would post them.I can`t get Photobucket to get along with my computers Java Script,at least that is what they tell me.



















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Offline G-Man

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #18 on: February 24, 2012, 01:11:28 AM »
Again, I think one would have seen about anything in use there and I have no reason to doubt that fowler - perhaps many others like it - shown in the photos - was used there.  Remember that in 1782 Boone's weapon of choice for what he knew was likely to be a tough fight in a dense wood was " a long barreled English fowling piece that he hardly ever used" loaded with buck and ball.

However, that being said, there are enough period references to indicate that the Carolina/SW Virginia backcountry was predominantly a rifle culture well before the Revoultion and that Kings Mountain was a largely a rifle fight.  That doesn't mean there weren't other types of weapons in some households, but rifles were firmly established in the area by that time - and likely not just among the whites.   We see such things as South Carolina trying to restrict trading rifles to the Creeks by the late 1750s, and period references to natives using rifles - not trade guns - by the 1780s.   

Guy

Online rich pierce

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #19 on: February 24, 2012, 01:55:54 AM »
Thanks, Dennis, looks like that big ole gun was always a smoothie.
Andover, Vermont

Offline bgf

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2012, 02:32:34 AM »
The Dickert allusion comes, I believe, from the Draper manuscripts.  They are an excellent but second hand source.  The phrase that Draper uses is "Deckhard" not Dickert so your guess is as good as mine as to who he really meant.  And he just might have got it slightly wrong based on who he talked  to and what they actually knew about the rifles.  We do have a pretty good inference some iron mounted rifles were around, along with a lot of brass mounted ones.  You might want to take a look at the General Martin papers on this time period in this area to get some idea of the rough and ready equipment carried by the militia and the backcounry folk. (http://www.josephmartinchapter.org/patriots.html)

Heinz,
You are absolutely right that it comes from Draper, or at least I remember the same thing :)!  I also seem to remember finding out that the Deckard reference came from a British officer, possibly not even one in the southern fight, but I would have to work to find the references -- don't have them offhand.  I say this not trying to start a rumor, but just because someone may know one way or the other.  The chance they were all armed with "Dickerts" is slim to none at best -- the entire nature of the expedition was less than "official" -- apparently John Sevier couldn't even get a response to his request for a commanding officer, so they were probably not drawing from an armory!  I also remember that Sevier and Shelby either were never financially compensated or only after a long time for their outlays, due to difficult relations with NC, though they were both awarded some largely ceremonial recognition later.

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2012, 02:58:52 AM »
Quote
The phrase that Draper uses is "Deckhard" not Dickert so your guess is as good as mine as to who he really meant.
Deckard, Dickert and Dickard are all seen in the genealogy of the Dickert family. In the 18th and early 19th century family names were quite often spelled differently even within the same family groups. I know of at least 7 common spellings for my family name during that time period.
Dennis
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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #22 on: February 24, 2012, 03:49:19 AM »
not wanting to drag a red herring cross the path, but standardized spelling was generations in the future, after public schools and the McGuffy readers.

 mos folk jist spelles it owt ta way tey taut tey heerd it an tem furrn namz was anybudys gess. :D

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #23 on: February 24, 2012, 03:50:18 AM »
About that Tileston gun - didn't we all discuss that pretty intensely a few years back when it first came up for auction?  I remember right after it was auctioned it went to the KRA show that year, and I got to examine it pretty darn closely with a few people.  Those iron mounts are as finely shaped and filed as any brass mounts, and there was some discussion about them possibly being some imports.  The problem is, they are fully American in appearance.  I don;t think I've ever seen ANY English gun of that period with mountings that look like that.  I personally think they were American forged - there certainly were enough smiths here capable of that kind of work, both blacksmiths and gunsmiths.  I also remember there was a lot of discussion as to where it was made, how authentic or not the signature may be based upon where the gun had previously spent its time and whether or not some changes had been made to the breeching/lock area etc.  It's really a spectacular rifle.  Id love to know if any documentation (not speculation, documentation) has turned up to the effect of a maker of that name of the period.  I know there were Tilestons in both Massachusetts as well as Virginia during the appropriate years.
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: long rifles at Kings Mtn
« Reply #24 on: February 24, 2012, 04:10:48 AM »
Although not the expert that Eric is, some 60 years of collecting have brought me some skills and experience in assessing old rifles. So, my take on the Tileston gun is the same as his.
The CLA folks who were at the Phoenix NRA meeting saw and handled the gun just as I did. Mel Hankla and the House brothers were there among others. No one had an unkind word for the gun. I think that everyone accepted the piece as presented.
The document I alluded to earlier, upon reflection, was a list of repairs and new built guns that was dated sometime in the Revolution. I will make the effort to get in touch with the owner, (at that time), and see what he can add to this discussion, which incidently is one of the best in a long time.
Dick