Author Topic: frizzen bounce back? (Read 17010 times)

LH · « **on:** February 23, 2012, 04:48:31 PM »

I just put a gun together using a Chambers Late Kettleman lock and the frizzen is bouncing back causing slow fires and breaking flints.

I've dealt with that before with flat frizzen springs by bending a hump under the frizzen cam, but this lock has a roller on it. I was thinking of grinding a recess behind the cam for the roller to fall into when it flips up and perhaps taking a little metal off the "toe" where the frizzen hits the top of the frizzen spring, but thought maybe some of yall might know a better cure for this? Thanks

mattdog · « **Reply #1 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:01:55 PM »

Frizzen rebound can be ultra frustrating. My usual cure is a stronger frizzen spring or stiffen up the one on the lock.

Chambers warents their locks so if you start grinding on things you will likely void that warenty. My advice: call Jim Chambers and explain your problem before modifying anything.

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #2 on:** February 23, 2012, 05:09:21 PM »

Save yourself the trouble, send it to Jim Chambers and ask him to fix it for you.

If someone else messed it up you might have to pay

for the repair but no one can do it better.

If its under warrantee it costs you postage and you get to spend your time on more fun things

until the lock comes back fixed right!!

LH · « **Reply #3 on:** February 23, 2012, 10:30:12 PM »

I aint worried about the warranty, and this thing has the stiffest frizzen spring I've ever seen now. I'm afraid if I spread it that the hammer cant trip the frizzen! Or it will eat flints like a fat guy eats M&M's. I really dont want to take time to package it up, drive up town to mail it, then wait a week to use it again. I guess I'll do what I originally planned. I'm wondering what Chambers Flintlocks would do to it?

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #4 on:** February 23, 2012, 11:20:13 PM »

Call Jim and talk with him.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #5 on:** February 24, 2012, 02:32:16 AM »

WWJD?

(what will Jim do?)

I agree on the bounce back being frustrating. I have a lock by another maker that the frizz bounces back something awful. I spread the spring to where it's pretty hard to open, and the darn thing STILL bounces back. Breaks off large pieces of flint. I'm thinking for temporary, I'll extend the leather on the top jaw to act as a cushion.

I think now it may have to do with balance of the spring strengths. I think the main on this lock could be a little less strong. It's a cast spring, and I was thinking of making a main for it.

Sorry, I don't mean to steal your thread, but it's all related somehow.

Tom

LH · « **Reply #6 on:** February 24, 2012, 02:46:54 AM »

Tom, thanks for the comments. I think you're right about the problem being related to the two springs. This afternoon I took a carbide bit and ground a round recess on the back side of the frizzen cam so that the roller falls into that little dimple making it harder to climb back out once it falls in there. I also ground a little off the toe of the frizzen so it opens up farther than it did before. I didnt take much off there though. I shot it about 25 or 30 times without a bounce back so maybe I've cured it. An interesting aside, I never knapped once in those two dozen + shots and maybe its just my imagination, but it seems to shoot faster now than it did before even when it didnt bounce back. Perhaps it was bouncing at least part way back every time before and that might have slowed down the action. Thats another perplexing thing about all this, I never have figured out why the frizzen bouncing back causes a slow fire. Seems like if the spark hits the prime that would be all she wrote??? A little voodoo in flintlockin I suppose.

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #7 on:** February 24, 2012, 02:52:09 AM »

The stronger the better when it comes to main springs in my view. I'm continually suprised at how heavy many orginal mainsprings are. A stronger frizzen spring will help prevent the frizzen from bouncing back as will a frizzen design where the frizzen opens a significant amount past the cam-over position at the fully open rest position. Also, the longer the toe of the frizzen is from the pivot point, the more torque is applied by the frizzen spring. I think the issue is in the frizzen and frizzen spring, Acer. Lightening the mainspring could help, but it's not addressing the real issue in my view.

Pete G. · « **Reply #8 on:** February 24, 2012, 03:23:40 AM »

I had the same lock with the same problem. If it didn't break the flint it would loosen it in the jaws. That could be the source of your slow ignition. The problem was partially solved by tweaking the tail on the frizzen so that it opens further. Also check to make sure that the wheel is not coming to rest against the boss for the frizzen pivot screw. The cam should be the only thing touching the wheel with the frizzen open. Mine still leaves a mark across the flint where it hits, but the flint now remains tight.

Bob F · « **Reply #9 on:** February 24, 2012, 03:31:35 AM »

Same lock same problem. I was going to call Jim after tree rat season closes this weekend. Having too much fun chasing tree rats with my .25 to stop before the season ends.

Acer Saccharum · « **Reply #10 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:34:10 AM »

Quote from: Jim Kibler on February 24, 2012, 02:52:09 AM

The stronger the better when it comes to main springs in my view. I'm continually suprised at how heavy many orginal mainsprings are. A stronger frizzen spring will help prevent the frizzen from bouncing back as will a frizzen design where the frizzen opens a significant amount past the cam-over position at the fully open rest position. Also, the longer the toe of the frizzen is from the pivot point, the more torque is applied by the frizzen spring. I think the issue is in the frizzen and frizzen spring, Acer. Lightening the mainspring could help, but it's not addressing the real issue in my view.

The main is very, very strong. I remember and honor Jim Chambers once telling me that the cause for the flint breaking was not the mainspring strength (a different lock than the one I mention above). I do believe this main is too strong for the current setup. I can barely close the frizzen and it still bounces back.

Maybe the frizzen toe needs to be longer so the leverage to hold the frizzen open is better. Hmmm. Thanks for the thoughts, Jim Kibler.

mattdog · « **Reply #11 on:** February 24, 2012, 05:36:42 PM »

Gentlemen, please let me make a point of terminology here. We have different people using the term "toe" to describe different parts of the frizzen. For clarificatioin:

The "toe" of a frizzen is the tip of the protrusion that rides on the spring.

The protrusion that sticks out in front of the frizzen cover is (in my book) called the "stop".

On occasion I have changed the shape or length of the stop to allow the frizzen to open farther and help trap the frizzen in the open position. Remembering that these frizzens are cast in wax first and then sent to a foundry they can be misshapen when removed from the wax mold or bent/misshapened when in transit to the foundry. Its amazing how a little tweak here or there can change the shape of a part enough that although not apperant to the naked eye will inhibit the way it fits and works.

I'm suprised that a lock with a roller in the spring would have this problem so consistently. LH seems to have hit on a fix for it though. I'll keep his technique in mind if I get into a similar situation in the future.

Blackpowder Barbie · « **Reply #12 on:** February 24, 2012, 06:31:05 PM »

My quick two cents worth is that particular lock is extremely picky on flint direction. The flint must fit bevel up for it to strike in the right location on the frizzen. If it is put in bevel down it will strike too high and with such force that the frizzen will rebound. If this doesn't fix the problem best to send it back to us to make sure all is in working order. Any altering of the spring it voids the entire warranty on the lock.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #13 on:** February 24, 2012, 10:13:58 PM »

Barbie, I appreciate your input. I have the Late Ketland in my Kuntz rifle which I love to shoot a lot. The frizzen rebounds on it, and breaks flints so I'm going to tweek it 'til I get it.
That's way more fun than having Jim do it!! This is the fastest and best sparking lock I own, and I'd trust my life on it's sure fire. When I get it tweeked, I'll post my constructive criticism.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #14 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:04:56 AM »

Taylor,
I have a late Chambers Ketland with my own internals in it and NO rebounds of any kind. The frizzen spring is untouched. Does the flint scrape all the way or nearly all the way down on the face of the frizzen? If it's a high strike,the frizzen may be moving too fast and creating the rebound. That is just a guess on my part and I have made 4 of these so far on Jim's parts with no reported problems.

Bob Roller

bgf · « **Reply #15 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:56:34 AM »

Quote from: Bob Roller on February 25, 2012, 12:04:56 AM

Taylor,
I have a late Chambers Ketland with my own internals in it and NO rebounds of any kind. The frizzen spring is untouched. Does the flint scrape all the way or nearly all the way down on the face of the frizzen? If it's a high strike,the frizzen may be moving too fast and creating the rebound. That is just a guess on my part and I have made 4 of these so far on Jim's parts with no reported problems.

Bob Roller

That's what I think was happening on my Durs Egg -- the problem of breaking flints cleared right up when I moved them back from the frizzen just a bit. DE seems to really prefer bevel down (it is an English lock, I guess), but seems like same thing is going on with the Late Ketlands with some slightly different geometry. Maybe shorter flints would help also. I've used the 5/8"x3/4" successfully in the Durs Egg in a pinch.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #16 on:** February 25, 2012, 12:56:48 AM »

Bob, I'm glad you chimed in here. I suspect the timing is the issue, and will be checking it out before any metal gets touched. Thanks for your input.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #17 on:** February 25, 2012, 01:42:53 AM »

I still prefer the roller to be on the frizzen like the Twigg because the ramp on the frizzen spring not only gives the flint a chance to get a "bite" but it also acts as a brake to prevent rebounds an flint breakages. The Durs Egg and small Manton have rollered frizzens with ramped springs but those springs are not as strong as the should be.

Bob Roller

Larry Pletcher · « **Reply #18 on:** February 25, 2012, 02:05:38 AM »

Quote from: bgf on February 25, 2012, 12:56:34 AM

That's what I think was happening on my Durs Egg -- the problem of breaking flints cleared right up when I moved them back from the frizzen just a bit. DE seems to really prefer bevel down (it is an English lock, I guess), but seems like same thing is going on with the Late Ketlands with some slightly different geometry. Maybe shorter flints would help also. I've used the 5/8"x3/4" successfully in the Durs Egg in a pinch.

In 1990 I timed a Durs Egg and a Manton from L&R. (Muzzle Blasts Jan 1990) You are correct in using the bevel down. The DE was faster bevel down and the standard deviation was dramatically reduced. The Manton liked bevel up, but the difference was much less noticable. I'd shoot the Manton bevel up, but would not notice the difference. On the DE however, you definitely want the bevel down.

Regards,
Pletch

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #19 on:** February 25, 2012, 05:54:39 PM »

Quote from: Acer Saccharum on February 24, 2012, 06:34:10 AM

Quote from: Jim Kibler on February 24, 2012, 02:52:09 AM
The stronger the better when it comes to main springs in my view. I'm continually suprised at how heavy many orginal mainsprings are. A stronger frizzen spring will help prevent the frizzen from bouncing back as will a frizzen design where the frizzen opens a significant amount past the cam-over position at the fully open rest position. Also, the longer the toe of the frizzen is from the pivot point, the more torque is applied by the frizzen spring. I think the issue is in the frizzen and frizzen spring, Acer. Lightening the mainspring could help, but it's not addressing the real issue in my view.

The main is very, very strong. I remember and honor Jim Chambers once telling me that the cause for the flint breaking was not the mainspring strength (a different lock than the one I mention above). I do believe this main is too strong for the current setup. I can barely close the frizzen and it still bounces back.

Maybe the frizzen toe needs to be longer so the leverage to hold the frizzen open is better. Hmmm. Thanks for the thoughts, Jim Kibler.

Hi Tom. Maybe you are right about the mainspring strength, but after seeing the strength of some original examples, it's hard to imagine. A strong mainspring is a very important factor in the speed of a lock. Set up well with the rest of the lock, it should work fine. Just my view on things.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #20 on:** February 28, 2012, 12:24:54 AM »

I can't remember if this is the thread that is appropriate, but this post is pertinent to the question. Below is a photo of my Late Ketland (Chambers') lock in my Kuntz rifle. So far I've purchased three frizzen springs for the lock hoping to eliminate frizzen bounce back, but without success. So, I ground a little off the bottom of the frizzen's stop to allow it to rotate a little further, but it didn't seem to have any effect. Still, flints were being sheared off by about 1/8", and though they still worked, their life was radically shortened.
So, I thought perhaps a little more pressure (stronger spring) would help, and re-arced a frizzen spring. Then, while returning the roller, I broke out the back support arm. $#@*!! While doing this job, the spring arm needs to be well supported over a plate with a clearance hole for the pin...word to the wise!! I installed a factory spring, and since I'd taken a little off the stop, it rotated a little further and the spring had no tension against the frizzen's toe at rest position. Two choices now - spread the spring a little, or replace the wheel/roller. I made a new roller out of 5/16" drill rod. The old roller is .250" with a 1/16" bearing hole. The new roller is .3125" and though it fits nicely, it will not allow the frizzen's toe to pass since the wheel is too large and strikes the spring's boss. So I slowly ground metal off the roller until it would allow the frizzen to close and open, and ended up with .297" diameter. It allows the frizzen to open and close, and completely eliminated the bounce back issue. Eueka!!

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #21 on:** February 28, 2012, 01:44:33 AM »

Might be a market for those .297" rollers!!

Jim Chambers · « **Reply #22 on:** February 28, 2012, 03:36:48 AM »

In the next few days I'll take a look and see if a larger roller might be needed in this lock. If so, that is a very simple thing to do. We need to make more rollers for that lock anyway since we're almost out of the 1/4" ones.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #23 on:** February 28, 2012, 03:57:25 AM »

It made a phenomenal difference in my lock, Jim. The only other thing I did, which may or may not have made any difference, was to polish and re-temper the spring (just for the colour) and to shave a little off of the foot (stop) of the frizzen, tp allow it to open further. But I suspect, it was the diameter of the roller that did it... around .300".

LH · « **Reply #24 on:** March 03, 2012, 03:01:47 PM »

D. Taylor, did you harden that new roller? Is it necessary to do that and the axle rod for it? I shot mine again yesterday and after I changed flints, it started bouncing back again. So, my dimple didnt work. I fooled with it for two hours changing flints, turning them over, back, in, out, nothing worked. I finally put an O ring on the stop for a temporary fix so I could at least do some shooting without turning flints into gravel. Maybe I should weld a coil spring onto the bottom of the stop?

I've got some 5/16 ss rod (316 ss) and will use a piece of broken drill bit for the axle and just wondered if that roller wheel needs to be hardened? My thinking is that the toe has been drawn back so the 316 ought to be hard enough?

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Author Topic: frizzen bounce back? (Read 17010 times)

mattdog

Bob F

mattdog