Author Topic: Half draw notch ques.  (Read 4349 times)

Offline Roger Fisher

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Half draw notch ques.
« on: February 23, 2012, 06:33:29 PM »
A question for you lock experts out there in winterland.....

So, 'we' have a cussin lock that has the half draw position of the hammer cup lower than the tip of the nipple and nipple is short enough that if said nipple was filed or stoned shorter the hammer cup edges would hit said nipple base/boss.... ::)

What would be the best fix w/o getting too sloppy?  I'm considering a thin shim held in that half draw notch with J-B weld to raise the hammer's half draw position high enough to get the capper on to cap the beastie.      What say you?   If she were yours how would you fix and don't say get a flinter since that's a given..  capping on full draw is of course an option; but would involve teaching an ol dog new tricks.   ???

btw filing the hammer cup shallower would make her look screwy and she's already screwy enough.

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #1 on: February 23, 2012, 06:55:22 PM »
Have a new tumbler made. Whose lock is it?
When was the gun made? If it is of modern make,it may have been made by someone who had no idea about matching a lock to a breech. I have had people call me and ask  why my Hawken squirrel rifle lock couldn't be used with a 1 and 1/8"breech. My answer was always to ask if they had ANY concept about incompatible dimensions. The answer was usually "Huh". 
That hammer just being barely off the nipple is no safety because a hard hit on the back of the hammer could break the sear or the notch in the tumbler and fire the gun. Even without the problem you describe,the "half cocked" position is a convenience on a caplock to aid in loading and capping and should be designed to withstand the torque of the mainspring and not an upward thrust from a pull on the trigger or the sudden release of a set trigger.

Bob Roller

Offline T*O*F

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #2 on: February 23, 2012, 07:47:09 PM »
As an easier alternative to making a new tumbler, fit a new hammer that is properly clocked to fall within the proper parameters of the lock tumbler notches.  This would require starting with a blank hammer of the proper length, but requires only a drill and files to fit, whereas making a new tumbler requires a lathe.
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Offline Longknife

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #3 on: February 23, 2012, 08:19:57 PM »
If all the other lock geometry is correct and function properly I would simply weld up the tumbler hole in the hammer and recut it to allow for the necessary clearance......Ed 
Ed Hamberg

omark

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #4 on: February 24, 2012, 07:05:13 PM »
is it not possible that the new hammer idea could leave the hammer in the full cock position too far back??    mark

Offline Longknife

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #5 on: February 24, 2012, 07:26:28 PM »
is it not possible that the new hammer idea could leave the hammer in the full cock position too far back??    mark

Fitting a new hammer at a new position or welding and recutting the tumbler hole to reposition the hammer will cause the hammer to move farther back at full cock too. It will have to be determined before any work is done how much the hammer needs to be moved and if the movement will cause any problems ( interference with stock?). Filing the full cock noth will help, if there is enough to there to file....Ed
« Last Edit: February 24, 2012, 07:27:37 PM by Longknife »
Ed Hamberg

Offline Swampwalker

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #6 on: February 24, 2012, 07:50:43 PM »
You might be able to rebend the cock - it would have to be heated to red heat to do so, and might distort the neck in the process.  It would depend on how far you need to go.  Would second the suggestion to weld (or at least braze) up the existing hole and recut for a new alignment.  Lots easier than remaking the tumbler.

Offline P.W.Berkuta

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #7 on: February 24, 2012, 08:44:36 PM »
I have done quite a few cap guns and have plugged the hole in the hammer and re-clocked the hammer position. You can file a square plug fit it to the hammer hole and solder/braze it in then re-cut the square or drill a hole in the hammer to enlarge the hole and make a round plug and silversolder/braze it in then re-cut your square hole in your hammer OR weld it then re-cut your square hole. Your choice -- this is the easyest fix - AND if you don't get it right the first time you can do it over -- try that after you filed the tumbler incorrectly  ;D!
"The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person who is doing it." - Chinese proverb

westbj2

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2012, 08:57:39 PM »
" 'we' have a cussin lock that has the half draw position of the hammer cup lower than the tip of the nipple and nipple is short enough that if said nipple was filed or stoned shorter the hammer cup edges would hit said nipple base/boss.."


There is a conspiracy of sorts at play here.  Lockmakers feel that they need to include a hammer to make their product "complete".   Many users of these "complete" locks try to use them, as recieved, in a application where they cannot work.  Often this results in a misalignment with the hammer/nipple/breech, the function of the lock and improperly positioning the lock itself.   
The best way to avoid all the problems is to dismount the hammer upon receiving the lock and give it to someone to hide until the lock is properly placed.  The hammer is best understood as a connection between the lock and breech.....not part of the lock.
Some welding, bending or even a new hammer blank may be required to successfully connect the lock and breech.  The Brits had a name for the specialist who did this work.....the Percussioner who did his work after the stocker had fit the lock.
This from Greener:
 The percussioner, upon
receiving the stampings or forgings, first proceeds to drill and square a hole in the
hammer to admit shank of tumbler, and fit the hammer upon it ; it should fit tightly,
to prevent play or liability to fly off; the hole is drifted from round to square by
knocking in different-sized drifts, which condenses the iron round the hole, and so
prevents the hammer from wearing loose. He then files the noses of the forgings,
and adjusts them to strike evenly over the face of the nipple.
Jim Westberg

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #9 on: February 24, 2012, 09:05:32 PM »
Interesting answers well spoken, well received and my thanks go out to all of you.. Now I'll stumble along my own path I suppose. ;D

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #10 on: February 24, 2012, 10:29:11 PM »
Interesting answers well spoken, well received and my thanks go out to all of you.. Now I'll stumble along my own path I suppose. ;D

Is the sear too short?
This will change the hammer location.
I would leave the hammer alone this is the hard way to fix the problem IMO. Depending on what an examination indicated I would replace the sear, if needed or weld up and recut the sear notches.
Or replace the tumbler.

Dan
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Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Half draw notch ques.
« Reply #11 on: February 25, 2012, 01:35:14 AM »
Interesting answers well spoken, well received and my thanks go out to all of you.. Now I'll stumble along my own path I suppose. ;D

Is the sear too short?
This will change the hammer location.
I would leave the hammer alone this is the hard way to fix the problem IMO. Depending on what an examination indicated I would replace the sear, if needed or weld up and recut the sear notches.
Or replace the tumbler.

Dan
A slightly longer sear would certainly cure it lovely to simply buy one such.  Available, and where  anybody?     Thanks,