New guy building J. Long rifle

[aflo]

I am totally new to this, having only bought my first firearm (a Ruger 9mm pistol !?) last spring. I have been lurking here for a while trying to get up to speed and this site, with all its resources, is really great.
After much internet research, I elected to get the Buchele book, “Recreating the American Longrifle”, and have read it cover to cover (going on the third time).
I then took the plunge with a Track of the Wolf kit of a Joe Long .45 rifle and have been working on it for a few weeks now. I also ordered “The Kentucky Rifle, a True American Heritage in Pictures” which unfortunately only has one example of a Joseph Long. I have actually done better with a search on this site which produced several nice J. Long examples, one of the best of which was a flintlock version. These examples have been very helpful as I plan my project.
The Track kit seems good, what I had expected, but clearly leaves a lot up to the builder. I am a retired car designer with a long history of building RC model airplanes (mostly WW-I biplanes) so this is a new challenge.
The Track kit was a little disappointing in that the barrel and lock pre-inleting assumed a good deal of interference between the drum and the breech plug so I moved the barrel back a little to avoid this (the Buchele book was fairly strong on this point so I followed its lead). The other issue is that the patch box kit from Track is definitely smaller than my photo examples of Joseph Long designs. On the other hand I had already decided to make my version a bit smaller anyway, to give the design a little more room to breathe.
I intend to try some incised carving on the left side behind the cheek piece, working from one of the photos I found here, with perhaps a little of my own interpretation of the original.
I love the shape of the Joe Long stock which is very smooth and gestural. I like the fact that he didn’t do a lot of engraving and his carving is mostly incised – both of which work into my relative lack of skill sets. I may try a few original ideas in detail areas, after all it will be my rifle to make or screw up. I do hope to avoid any egregious conflicts of design with the Joe Long style so any input would be welcomed.
Once I get a working camera, I will try to post a few pics.
Regards,
Allan

[Dphariss]

Buy Dixon's book on Recreating the PA Long rifle thats the approximate title.
The Kentucky Rifle book is a good investment. I have 2.
If you can find someone in your area that builds rifles it can be a great help.
Make SURE the drum bears on the lock plate to give it support. This is very important with modern made drums.
If you do some searching here in tutorials or ask questions you will get helpful answers.
Welcome aboard.

Dan

[Loudy]

Allan,

I like the looks of the Joe Long longrifles also.  I have made a couple Upper Susquehanna style rifles.  I look forward to seeing photos of your completed project.  An excellent resource for photos and drawings of Joe Long guns is a book entitled "The Kentucky Rifle & Me" by Edith G. Cooper.  She includes photos of several Joe Long guns collected by her late husband.  You can sometimes find this out of print book on e-Bay or abebooks.com. 

Good luck,
Mark Loudenslager   

[JDK]

Aflo,  Update the details on your profile to include where you're at and the other stuff.  You may be close to somebody who has the resources you need, reference material, hands-on advise, etc.  Folks on this sight are spread out all over and most are very helpful.  Allot of original Joe Long signed rifles around here.  There were over a dozen at the 18th Century show in Lewisburg last month. You have allot of latitude in decorating a Joe Long as there were many.

[Don Getz]

Aflo........just curious, which lock did they supply with the kit?    Double set triggers?     You have not picked an easy gun to do, that is, if you want to end up with a gun that looks like a Joe Long.............Don

[aflo]

Thanks everyone for the input.
I will be looking for those books.
The provided lock is a Chambers short Siler lock. The triggers are double set but the provided trigger guard was too small so I ordered, and am fitting, a slightly longer version (similar design).

[Don Getz]

Aflo........am not sure what you mean by a "short siler" lock.   The lock should have a round tail, am not sure which lock
Jim sells that would be proper.    As for hardware, Dave Keck sells a set of hardward which is for a "Dreisbach" gun and
it would be close to what Joe Long used.  Even his ramrod pipes would be pretty good for a Long rifle.   The side plate
for a Joe Long is rather easy to make.    Use some 1/16" thick brass, shape it like an elongated football with a lump on the top for the lock bolt.  Have fun..........Don

[snrub47]

The book "The Kentucky Rifle and Me, by Edith Cooper is for sale in the sell/trade section under 'Books for sale/trade. page 2.

[aflo]

The lock appears to be the one identified as an L-11 on the Chambers website. I did file the back point off a little but it still isn't very round.
On the Track parts list >> LOCK-SS-CL-RH] Siler small right Percussion Conversion Lock, by Jim Chambers

I will check out that book. Thanks

[Don Getz]

I think Jim makes a round plate, percussion lock, something that is proper for a lot of 1800's percussion guns......Don

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

This is Chambers'  L-11

[JDK]

Don, The problem is that T.O.W.'s precarve is pre-inlet for the Siler.....just as their Southern guns are inlet....go figure.  Why go to all that trouble to pre-inlet stock for inappropriate parts.  J.D.

[aflo]

Too bad I didn’t know about this before, it may have been possible to fit the rounder tailed lock. Oh well, I’m sure that even old Joe occasionally had to deal with some stuff a customer wanted used. My gun (first one!) will not be perfect anyway… maybe not even the second?
I have been researching some patchlock designs, etc. These pix were drawn from photos found on this site (thanks, Nord) and will probably work for me pretty well. The brass patchlock brass blanks provided by Track are a little small so that design has been condensed a hair. I will have to lay these out on the actual stock for any final refinement and location.

[JDK]

I would be careful rounding off the tail on that Siler.  Make sure you don't leave it short of your lock inlet...if you decide to go that route. Rounding that tail still leaves you with a Germanic style lock with the beveled edges and the tail moulding and the Long used an English style lock.  I wouldn't worry about at at all at this point and use what you have as you aren't trying do an exact copy of a given rifle and like you suggested it could have happened and it's just that no copy survived.  People do much, much worse stylistic changes when building.

The patchbox kit listed on T.O.W. is almost 8" long and as long as you use all of that length, and it appears that you are, you should be fine....provided a reasonable length of pull.

Nice drawings.  But careful using the dimensions of your existing precarve while planning your layout because you will find most precarves leave allot of extra wood that will need to be removed.  Upper Susquehanna guns are late guns and are much smaller through the butt as compaired to the lower Pennsylvania styles that are more commonly seen.  Spend allot of time planning and you will be fine.  Measure twice, then measure again before you do any cutting....or filing for that matter.  J.D.

[aflo]

Thanks for the inputs. These are exactly the kind of informed ideas that I, as a novice,  would not have considered.

[aflo]

This is a progress report on this rifle. The first several pix are of the butt plate (preliminary fitting), the entry ramrod pipe inlet and the barrel tang. Sorry about the photos but my regular camera is broken and I am using this little Casio pocket job which has no good focus on close ups.
I have been trying to true up and slim down the TOW stock in regards to the lock area and forestock. I hope it is getting there. The barrel loops and ramrod pipes are all in now, as is the ramrod hole itself.
I am now trying to resolve and refine the lock shape (starting with some 1/32” black drafting tape (Formaline) to do the shape. The tape line in the pix was traced, scanned and elongated a bit on both ends. I thought it could use a little more length. The later shots are hard to see with the pencil line but I think it is getting better. I made a lithoplate template for the shape. You can just see a Mercedes ad on it if you look closely. This is about .010” aluminum and I have always used it for my RC airplanes. It makes sense to use for this rifle too.
I guess the next step is to start the shaping of the lock area and wrist based on the new lines, then move back to the butt and cheek areas.

[greybeard]

Aflo;  I cant help but notice that the trigger guard is somewhat proud of the wood. You are probably aware that it is not inletted flush with the wood yet but I thought it worth mentioning.
Bob Reader     ( I have been guilty of this in the past)

[aflo]

That is a rough casting with lots of work remaining. It is partly inlet but I agree it needs to go in more.

[aflo]

This is a progress report on this rifle, from a Track of the Wolf Joseph Long kit.
I am working on the inlets and have found the techniques from some threads on this site to be invaluable. Of course, I still need more practice to get this right.
Of particular difficulty is the rear most inlet for the barrel lug. The forward ones lay on a bevel line and have a bend in them to match the wood. The one nearer the lock area of course doesn’t have that bevel in the wood but I am attempting to keep it in the brass, with a little reveal “shelf” in the wood on the bottom to make it work. Of course the bottom half of this brass part is not flush with anything with this approach, making it very difficult to finish off. I think I will finish installing the rest and then just take the time necessary to get all these inlets to look right - along with some more work on the wood of course.
Next time I will avoid working myself into this particular corner...

[Dennis Glazener]

I suspect the ram rod tip should go into the ram rod hole first. Not familiar with a Joe long rifle so you might check.
Dennis

[Don Getz]

Those fish inlays are kind of "modernistic" for a Joe Long, his fish look more like "fish"........Don

[Roger Fisher]

To my thinking which is usually all wrong, and if she were mine it isn't too late to reshape the back end of the lock plate moulding and the opposite side to more of a point more similar to the back end of the lock plate.   I seem to see that the trikker plate seems a bit proud of the stock.  set her in more...flush like..  show a tad more barrel side flat..  But what the Hey I'm no one to talk since I'm just the 200 lb Gorilla in the group.

[aflo]

Thanks for the inputs, guys.

[Don Getz]

Another thing I have seen...........you could have lived with just one lock bolt, would have been more proper for a percussion gun...........Don

[aflo]

This project began with a Joseph Long “kit”, or at least my interpretation of one. Not having the benefit of a lot of thought, nor a lot of (early on) reference material, the project tended to shift to more of a Joe Long - AFLO gun, not surprising for a first project.
Some J. Long elements have been picked up pretty much literally, some used as inspiration and some ignored in favor of other ideas. For instance, the patchbox is certainly a fairly literal adaptation, whereas the barrel loop inlets are a combination of Long’s fish and his diamond shaped inlets (I like the look of the gun with the diamonds but also the whimsy of the fish).
As this rifle moves toward completion and final form resolution, the Aflo component will get larger.

The lock mortise shape was an attempt at matching the Joe Long rifles, which of course used round tail locks. Roger’s suggestion is a good one however - this isn’t going to be a literal Joe Long re-creation anyway and a more pointed shape would work better aesthetically on this particular gun.

On the trigger guard, I want to take a little more wood off the bottom of the stock under the lock so the trigger guard is going to get worse, for a while. I still have a lot of brass that needs to be taken of the sandcast part and that may help.

On the ramrod, I have seen them both ways and would prefer to have the “ram” end go into the stock. Unfortunately the drilled hole won’t allow it (I might still try to work on this).