wcheellock 1640-50 (Rekonstrukcja)

[raszpla]

[Model19]

Nice.   So just how do those things work anyways?

[raszpla]

http://www.youtube.com/user/bolek1964?feature=mhee

[Acer Saccharum]

Wow, they are FAST!

[dannybb55]

That would make a nice stalking rifle. I love the file work.

[Bill of the 45th]

Just, WOW

Bill

[Dphariss]

Wow, they are FAST!

I dunno I can still hear a click-poof from the pan cover opening  then the pan igniting when the trigger is pulled. Click-bang is apparent in firing as well. So from trigger break to ball out the muzzle?
I have never shot one but have been told they are very fast in actual use.

Dan

[raszpla]

wheellock mechanism is very fast. powerful main spring, gathers several times more energy than Main spring mechanism flinlock.The main spring has to be powerful, as well as a spring rooster.otherwise it is a toy and not part of the weapons.The powerful main spring forces the solid construction of the entire mechanism etc.

[Jerry V Lape]

Were you working from an antique to duplicate or are there castings or drawings to work from in making a wheellock?

[Dphariss]

wheellock mechanism is very fast. powerful main spring, gathers several times more energy than Main spring mechanism flinlock.The main spring has to be powerful, as well as a spring rooster.otherwise it is a toy and not part of the weapons.The powerful main spring forces the solid construction of the entire mechanism etc.

I failed to commend the workmanship and dedication that it takes to construct a lock of this type.
It really is impressive.

Dan

[Bob Roller]

That IS an outstanding job of lock making.
As a "Perfessional"lock maker,my hat is off to you. Just thinking about all the labor that went into this job is exhausting.

Bob Roller

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

I agree with everyone, and am very impressed too, with your workmanship, and understanding of the mechanism.  I have built only one, but it works splendidly.  In use, the time from trigger pull, that is very very light, to the shot, seems quicker than the best flintlock.  One thing that is also remarkable, is that there is virtually no jar from the lock.  You'd think that that heavy mainspring snapping down would make the gun jump, but it does not. 
Raszpla...can you estimate how many hours you have inverted in that lock?  I'm interested in placing a dollar value on it.  It has been written that the value of a simple military wheellock pistol or dag, in the 16th C. would have been around $3000 by our standards.  So obviously they weren't issued to every common soldier.  Yet, it is the first firearm that could be loaded and carried cocked and ready for instant use.  I could get carried away here...

[raszpla]

you need to know that everyone I have reconstructed the mechanism is actually a prototype. now this type of wheellock, requires about 120-150 hours of work.This is not a mass production!.harsh, military model consumes fewer hours.My main partner is the photographic documentation
Also carry out renovations of the original but slightly less.I hope that I understood

[Rasch Chronicles]

Howdy everyone!

120 to 150 hours for the lock alone... and that is by an accomplished reproduction/prototype maker. I suppose a lockmaker and his apprentices might have made them quicker, but by how much? Then there are all the other parts to contend with too!

But, I suppose an M4 costs the federal gov't about $3k when it's all said and done!

Best regards,
Albert A Rasch

[volatpluvia]

Larry Pletcher's videos at five thousand frames per second seem to indicate that the wheellock is not faster than a flint.  It just seems to because it is so smooth in action compared to all that is going on right in front of your eye with a flint.  That was with my wheellock that did not have the snap open pan cover.  the pyrite was setting on the wheel when it was released by the sear.  It takes the powder just as long to light, etc.  BUT IT DOES SEEM FASTER.  As I went back and forth from wheel to flint, to wheel to flint, the flint was shocking in all its movement that alerted your senses to the coming boom and made it seem like there was significant delay.
volatpluvia

[Larry Pletcher]

 I was about to reply when Volatpluvia beat me to it.

First, let me add my complements to Raszpla.  The lock is magnificant.  The patience and care needed to produce such a fine lock is hard to imagine. This quality places you in the elite of gun makers.

Regarding the wheellocks ignition speed, my comments here are based on a single wheellock - the one made by Volatpluvia and videoed at Friendship in 2005. 

The ignition speeds of both flintlocks and wheellocks place us in a range where human senses are almost useless except for general impressions.  I have watched thousands of trials and say with certainty that human senses are at best unreliable for these short duration times.

The difficulty with wheellocks is that there doesn't seem to be any visual warning that ignition is taking place.  On Volatpluvia's lock the wheel is exposed.  We made a dot on the wheel with a felt marker so we could see when the wheel began to move, when it came to rest, and if there was any back lash.  At 5000 frames/second we could see all of this, including the backlash all happening well before the pan ignited.  (backlash was maybe 120 degrees IIRC)

In trying to say with certainty which is faster, wheellocks of flintlocks, I would maintain that we don't have evidence to support any reliable conclusion.  Volatpluvia's wheellock speeds falls within the range of the 80 + flintlocks I have collected.  It is slower than an original Manton and faster than "slower" flintlocks for which I have times.  Whether or not Volatpluvia's lock is representative of  wheellocks is unknown, but it is the only one I have to go by. It would be fun to have Raszpla's marvelous lock in front of a 5000 fps camera and see what it can do.

My "unsupported"  gut reaction is that both types of locks overlap eachother based on the quality of flint edges and pyrite condition.  If we had data on more wheellocks and more trials with each, we could make a better educated guess. It's quite possible that Volatpluvia's lock may have been 15% faster or slower on the next trial, based on pyrite condition. That happens on flintlocks regularly.

Finally, with 80+ flintlocks, I can say pretty well what flintlocks can be expected to do.  With one wheellock examined, I'd say the jury is still out. But, I will remain skeptical of conclusions based on eyes and ears. The term "seems faster" used by Volatpluvia and Taylor is a good choice until we have more than senses to go by.

Regards,
Pletch

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

Beautiful work I must say, and works flawlessly.

But I have a few questions.
The first is: In the last photo is that separate piece the winder?

Does it have a storage place in the lock or on the weapon somewhere?

It indeed looks as fast or faster than a flintlock, did it go out of useage just because of the complexity/cost of the construction, or was there another problem?

Lastly, since it was apparantly designed to carry cocked and primed, did it have some sort of safety?

Sorry for all the questions.

[Bob Roller]

"Seems faster"= perception and THAT is the name of the game. Human senses are no good for short duration tests. We have people that can "Leap tall buildings" in a single jump and then there are others who cannot recognize tall buildings.That is a quote from the old Buckskin Report so it HAS to be true.
I have never fired  an original flintlock rifle and wonder about the speed of ignition of the main charge when the vent or touch hole is a #50 drill hole thru perhaps 5/16ths of an inch of barrel wall or MORE. I used a "Jim Chambers" style touch hole in the last rifle I made and the Ketland lock with double throated cock and it fired like a caplock.
The late Tom Dawson once told me that the fastest lock ever made is useless if its capability is lost at the vent.
Nicht Wahr?

Bob Roller 

[4ster]

Beautiful work I must say, and works flawlessly.

But I have a few questions.
The first is: In the last photo is that separate piece the winder?

Does it have a storage place in the lock or on the weapon somewhere?

It indeed looks as fast or faster than a flintlock, did it go out of useage just because of the complexity/cost of the construction, or was there another problem?

Lastly, since it was apparantly designed to carry cocked and primed, did it have some sort of safety?

Sorry for all the questions.

I've read a bit but am no expert, this is my understanding:

The separate piece in the last photo is the spanner (winder).  I am not aware that the spanner was traditionally stored on the gun.

The wheel lock stayed in usage quite a while after the flintlock was perfected, but faded from general use for a number of reasons, among them 1) it was expensive to make, 2) it was more difficult to repair in the field and 3) a lost spanner rendered the weapon useless.

I think Raszpla is a better person to comment about the lock and its safety features.  I don't see any provision for a safety on this example (not that it isn't there, I just don't see it) but if memory serves he illustrated another example with a safety incorporated into the lock.

[dannybb55]

the safety is easy, snap the cock up and that's it.

[raszpla]

[volatpluvia]

Raspla,
That certainly appears to be fast!
volatpluvia

[Andy S]

I love wheellocks and may eventually need to start a project building one. Your example is beautiful, and seems very fast. Nicely done.

In actual use, are they difficult to clean and maintain?

[raszpla]

build a good mechanism wheellock is not easy but clean, it's a trifle

[raszpla]

needed are good pullers to remove the springs. other activities is a simple task.