Indiana State Rifle

[ptk1126]

In this morning's paper is an interesting article about the Indiana state legislature passing
a bill to make a John Small rifle the official state rifle.

Indiana becomes only the third state (Utah - Browning M1911 and Arizona - Colt Army) to adopt
an official state firearm. Where are you Pennsylvania and Kentucky ??

Here's the link to the article:

http://www.courier-journal.com/article/20120307/NEWS02/303070065/Indiana-lawmakers-adopt-antique-gun-state-rifle

All the best
Paul

[Curt J]

Jeff Jaeger told me a few days ago that this was in the works.  John Small was a superb craftsman, as well as being a very important historical figure on the Western frontier.  Well done, Indiana!

[rlm]

Don't know about Kentucky, but Pennsylvania has sooooo many great rifles and great gunsmiths. How ya gonna pick just one?

[G-Man]

That is very cool.  I don't know much about Indiana makers but I would think Small to be the best choice I know of for that state.  Here is a link to some more photos.

http://grouseland.wordpress.com/2012/03/07/grouseland-rifle-crafted-by-first-indiana-sheriff-designated-official-state-rifle/

GM

[The other DWS]

Interesting read, but it raises a question in my mind.

  If I understand it correctly NO ONE will be able to make a copy of the rifle or sell a copy without permission of the Grouseland foundation.

Has anyone run into problems in the past with similar "copy right" protections or restrictions when recreating a LR?  Or are what we make so much "patterned after" that only a 100% accurate bench-copy would fall under those kind of restrictions.

I recall that in the past various agencies that have owned historic arms have "authorized" or "licensed" copies;  the so-called Crockett rifle and maybe Washington's pistols come to my somewhat foggy recollection.

[Longknife]

That is cool that the government is recognizing the important role that firearms have played in the settling of our nation. I hope this helps extinguish the negative  views that most Americans are subjected to through the "anti's" campaigns. I can't wait for Illinois to get their State firearm but  I am sure it will be the Thompson Sub Machine gun, made famous by Capone and his rivals!!!!....Ed

[Dphariss]

Interesting read, but it raises a question in my mind.

  If I understand it correctly NO ONE will be able to make a copy of the rifle or sell a copy without permission of the Grouseland foundation.

Has anyone run into problems in the past with similar "copy right" protections or restrictions when recreating a LR?  Or are what we make so much "patterned after" that only a 100% accurate bench-copy would fall under those kind of restrictions.

I recall that in the past various agencies that have owned historic arms have "authorized" or "licensed" copies;  the so-called Crockett rifle and maybe Washington's pistols come to my somewhat foggy recollection.

No one can make an AUTHORIZED copy.
If I remember I will ask a lawyer friend Saturday.
Its not possible to copyright something as old as this rifle. It been in the public domain since it was made.
It MIGHT be possible to TRADE MARK it as Chevy does the Corvette. THIS prevents copying the styling.
http://blogs.corvettefever.com/6624085/corvette-news/corvette-grand-sport-general-motors-alledged-trademark-infringement/index.html
But Chevy MAKES the Corvette THEY designed it.
Doing this to something they did not make? I would have to see where the exact rifle was actually protected by trademark to think it was ILLEGAL to copy it.
What if Small made another very similar rifle? Would it be then impossible to copy the STOCK design of ANY similar Small rifle?
I think they have over reached.

Dan

[mr. no gold]

Sounds like the Trustees of Grouseland will exercise control over who handles the rifle with an intent to produce a copy of it. That they can easily do. How they will grant permission to copy it is up to them and their policies that are in force. It is a grand rifle and a copy of it would be a fine thing to have. Anyone going in that area should take the opportunity to go see it.
The purchase of the rifle nearly caused a schism in the community, as they paid what seemed to be a huge sum for it at the time. Given that a Small gun has since sold for $180,000 and change, it turns out to have been a very wise buy. Their rifle has some probems, as most old guns do, and those could/should probably be remedied, but that aside, it's a work of art. The old house ain't too shabby either!
Dick

[Dennis Glazener]

I would have to see where the exact rifle was actually protected by trademark to think it was ILLEGAL to copy it.

Actually everything that you write or make carries a legal copyright. The problem is defending it. All that registering a copyright does is help you defend it in case you ever need to.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html#duration

Dennis

[Dphariss]

I would have to see where the exact rifle was actually protected by trademark to think it was ILLEGAL to copy it.

Actually everything that you write or make carries a legal copyright. The problem is defending it. All that registering a copyright does is help you defend it in case you ever need to.

http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/
http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ01.pdf
http://www.copyright.gov/help/faq/faq-duration.html#duration

Dennis

I have been involved with publishing/writing off and on for over 30 years. I know that what I write is copyrighted as I write it. I also know that copyrights EXPIRE.
For example, my copy of Greener's "The Gun and its Developement" is too old to copyright. Just because the text might appear in later versions does not mean I am not free to use what is in my edition.
Trademarks are NOT the same as copyrights and can be bought and sold and remain valid indefinitely. The old Sharps Rifle Co. "Old Reliable" marking is now owned by C. Sharps Arms/Montana Armory who bought it some years back from its owner at the time and then denied Shiloh Sharps using it any longer. But nobody has tried to stop anyone from making the Sharps, Winchester 66,73,76,86,92 models. Or Ballards or 1911 Colts, or Colt SAA or a host of various percussion revolvers all of which are made in significant numbers by numerous firms. The SAA and 1911 Colta are an iconic symbol of Colt Firearms. One or the other is surely the most widely used and COPIED commercial firearm on the planet. Many are IDENTICAL the "Gov't Model"/SAA But the PATENTS are LONG expired.

The rifle is too old, its creator and his offspring and THEIR grandchildren are dead. I don't see how anyone can copyright someone else's 200 year old work.
Bought my 1896 edition of Greener, I own it, I can read it or use it to prop up a short leg on a chair or set fire to it, but I have no right to copyright it.
Where did Small get the engraving and carving patterns?  
Are these not public domain if HE copied them from patterns his master had? Or from some other pattern book? Do any of the details of THIS rifle appear on other Small rifles? How about the buttplate and TG? Did he buy them or make them? If he BOUGHT them who's work are they? Does this mean that these parts that are common perhaps the a number of rifles cannot be duplicated?
Its silly.
I don't think it would stand any sort of challenge.

Like I said I will ask a lawyer tomorrow if I think of it.

Dan

[stuart cee dub]

Dan is correct on the copyright issue .Mr Small 's chance to do so is now long past .Guess he was too busy trying to make a living.

Much of what goes on in the world of patents and copyrights comes down to ,in the end who is willing to sue or defend their claims .That is really the only way claims actually get enforced.
 
I find it peculiar the State of Indiana  would pick a gun ,a one of, something that essentially no one can own, as a state firearm .Kind of limits widespread ownership and participation .
Now what they could control is ''authorized copies'' but so many have lost their shirts going down that road .
Traditional muzzleloader do not lead themselves to mass production.

Regards Stuart

If neighboring MI is considering something similar might I suggest the Liberator Pistol (actually made in Motorcity I hear)It even used a ramrod