Author Topic: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!! PIC'S ADD  (Read 13996 times)

Offline A.Merrill

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IT TURNED GREEN!!!!! PIC'S ADD
« on: March 10, 2012, 03:21:15 AM »
    I don't know what I did, but my stock turned green and I mean green as grass.
    I have used Aquafortis in the past and never seen this before and I did my same routine as always. Sanded down the stock, whiskered it, rubbed on AF with clean white cotton rag. I did notice when I used a wet paper towel to wet the stock before whiskering the paper towel turned gray where it touched the wood. The drier it got the greener it got, now I can wipe on more AF and the green goes away while its wet but as it dries the green comes back.
    I found a very old bottle of AF I had and added some new AF to it, would that have something to do with it.    AL
« Last Edit: March 12, 2012, 11:56:26 PM by A.Merrill »
Alan K. Merrill

Offline tallbear

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #1 on: March 10, 2012, 03:24:00 AM »
Have you blushed the aqua fortis with heat???

The other DWS

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #2 on: March 10, 2012, 03:24:38 AM »
an environmentally friendly flintlock?   :o

more seriously, could you have some sort of copper-ish contamination in the solution?  just a WAG but its one of the few things that stains green.

Joe S

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2012, 03:39:03 AM »
Not to worry.  AF will turn some stocks green.  Just heat it up and it will turn a nice red-brown.

Offline JDK

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #4 on: March 10, 2012, 03:48:35 AM »
Could your latest batch been contaminated with modern steel.  Haven't had this problem personnally but was warned to be careful about adding modern allows (hardware store nails/screws and such) to the mix as there is all kinds of metals used today that are not conducive to a good AF mix.   ???  J.D.
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Offline FALout

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #5 on: March 10, 2012, 03:50:51 AM »
Do the heat, it will turn brown, nothing to worry about.
Bob

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #6 on: March 10, 2012, 04:28:17 AM »
Could your latest batch been contaminated with modern steel.  Haven't had this problem personnally but was warned to be careful about adding modern allows (hardware store nails/screws and such) to the mix as there is all kinds of metals used today that are not conducive to a good AF mix.   ???  J.D.

Nonsense!  Mild steel, low alloy steel, wrought iron, it makes no difference in the end product.  This idea has taken on a life of it's own.

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #7 on: March 10, 2012, 04:30:22 AM »
My question would be whether it's been heated or not as well.  Sometimes with a very soft piece of wood, it's difficult to heat to the necessary depth to completely transform the ferric nitrate.  In this case it can help to apply oil and heat it. This conducts to heat deeper.

Offline JDK

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #8 on: March 10, 2012, 04:38:24 AM »
Nonsense!  Mild steel, low alloy steel, wrought iron, it makes no difference in the end product.  This idea has taken on a life of it's own.

Good to know.  Have bunches of OLD rusty nails so hadn't need to try it so haven't.  Thanks, J.D.
J.D. Kerstetter

Offline A.Merrill

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #9 on: March 10, 2012, 05:24:07 AM »
    DWS, That's funny.
   
    Thanks for all the replies.
    No I haven't blushed it yet, I had never seen a stock turn this green before and I couldn't think what I did wrong. You would have to use spray paint to get something this green. It's not the hardest peace of wood I ever had, but it's not soft like silver maple. Thanks again, I'll let you all know how it turns out after I blush it.    AL
Alan K. Merrill

Offline Acer Saccharum

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #10 on: March 10, 2012, 05:33:13 AM »
I used to crank up the forge and heat thew stock carefully over the fire.

Now I use a heat gun, one of those electry things y'all pug into the wall.
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Offline FALout

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #11 on: March 10, 2012, 05:58:43 AM »
Heat gun works really well.  Easy to control the temp compared to holding the stock over something hot where you can't see what is going on.  Have yet to burn an edge or damage any carving, not that it couldn't happen.  I've had stocks turn green a couple of times, it's always nerve wracking with so much work done at that point.
Bob

Offline Eric Krewson

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #12 on: March 10, 2012, 07:24:31 AM »
My last AQ stock turned green.

Unblushed green on the left, blushed on the right.


Offline Dphariss

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #13 on: March 10, 2012, 09:42:25 AM »
Could your latest batch been contaminated with modern steel.  Haven't had this problem personnally but was warned to be careful about adding modern allows (hardware store nails/screws and such) to the mix as there is all kinds of metals used today that are not conducive to a good AF mix.   ???  J.D.

Nonsense!  Mild steel, low alloy steel, wrought iron, it makes no difference in the end product.  This idea has taken on a life of it's own.

Exactly Jim.
I have some made from steel wool, modern nails and some by using chips machined from an old spring wagon tire picked up out of the prairie. The color is IDENTICAL on the same piece of wood if the different stains are applied side by side.

Dan
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Online Keb

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #14 on: March 10, 2012, 03:31:44 PM »
I must be doing something wrong. I've never had one NOT turn green.

The other DWS

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #15 on: March 10, 2012, 05:45:32 PM »
dumb question here, like most of mine ;D

but why/what makes it turn green?  Its obvious that it does.

blunderbuss

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #16 on: March 10, 2012, 09:40:43 PM »
 

  If the heating method doesn't work apply red stain , red and green make brown If that comes out brown and you want more red just add more red.

Don Tripp

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2012, 11:49:07 AM »
Was it all home made AF or was some or all of it a prepared mixture that was purchased? There used to be a product on the market that would turn a maple stock lime green every time. I think it was called magic maple but I'm not sure since my memory has developed large holes.

Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2012, 04:48:53 PM »
Couple of things fwiw:

(1)  AF will very often turn a stock green prior to blushing with heat.  Usually red maple will REALLY go green, sugar maple will also but usually not to the same extent.  I am not a chemist however I believe this is due to the residual acidity in the stain reacting with minerals in the wood.  Red maple is softer and more porous, hence there is more stain penetration and subsequently more mineral/acid interaction.  I think it really just comes down to the chemical and structural composition of the particular stock blank.  Some may be seen to turn kind of a pukey yellow-green, some dull gray, some a weird orange etc.  In the end, however, it all heats out.

(2)  The need to be aware of what steel you are using in your AF is indeed a very real concern.  Some may state that I am full of $#@*.  Ok.  Please consider:  in a perfect world, your AF mixture would contain the *perfect* balance of residual acidity to dissolved iron, so that when you heat the stock and create ferric oxide, all of the acidity is 'spent' and - assuming you neutralize the stock with something to kill any residue - there will be NO FURTHER REACTION.  This is a key point.  We do not live in a perfect world.  Some of us do not neutralize the stock.  Usually there is always some residual acidity remaining and the stock is of an acidic pH.  Now - if you use pure iron, or old wrought iron, or low carbon nails or whatever - no, it probably will not make any difference.  However, there are a thousands of steel alloys in existence and some of them have weird things added to them for specific manufacturing or service purposes.  Let's say you happened to use a steel alloy that was loaded up with chrome:  what happens to chrome when it oxidizes?  One thing that can happen with some of the chrome oxides is that they will turn a lovely shade of green.  I'm sure all of us have at one point or another seen some old stocks finished in the 1970s that were stained with the then-popular Chromium Trioxide.  Many of them now will match your lawn.  A number of the chrome oxides will turn various shades of brown when heated, but over time will revert back to green - is this something that ANYONE would want?  Chrome is not the only additive to be found in steel alloys which will oxidize green, and if you are working with mystery steel, it may come out nicely or maybe 10 years down the road someone may accidentally run over their rifle with the lawnmower.  Which would YOU prefer?  For this reason, I have always preferred - and will continue to prefer - to at the very least try to work with relatively basic steel alloys of known composition, or composition which can be reasonably guessed-at.  It has nothing to do with a cork-sniffer approach or a purist attitude, I simply want to ensure the complete absence of dedicated St. Patrick's Day gunstocks.  It only takes one to really ruin your day!
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Offline cmac

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2012, 05:30:55 PM »
Doesn't Potassium permanganate turn a stock green also?

Offline Jim Kibler

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2012, 05:50:13 PM »
Hi Eric.  Good to hear from you.  I understand the arguement for using largely iron when preparing ferric nitrate.  I must say that I believe the concern is largely just an idea, however.  In my experience, any carbon or low alloy steel will work fine.  With low allow steels, elements such as chromium are kept below 1% typically.  I've used ferric nitrate made from material such a this (8620, 4140, 4340 etc.)  Its kind of a long story, but while working as a metallurgist, we used a 20% nitic acid solution as an etchant for determining case depth of carburized parts.  The etchant was used until the acid became spent and then discarded.  This process of course produced ferric nitrate which could be used as a wood stain.  I brought home many gallons of the stuff to use.  I've seen no trouble with green colors from the alloys we etched.  Now with that said, a heavily alloyed tool steel alloy containing large amounts of chrome etc. MAY cause problems.  Who knows.  I've never seen a green stock that can be linked to the steel alloy used.  The larger point here is even though an arguement can be made, things don't ofen work how we might think.  I've heard post before where people were scrounging the countryside for old barbed wire etc. to make their ferric nitrate thinking this will make a superior product.  As I said, things can take on a life of their own.  My thougts are just to use whatever mild steel you have laying around.  Pretty simple.   Just my experience and view on things.  Now please don't hate me for disagreeing as I value your posts and input.
Years ago, when you posted more often, I was one of the guys that kept my mouth shut and learned a great deal.  Now being quiet is much more difficult ;)

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Offline Eric Kettenburg

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #21 on: March 11, 2012, 06:40:08 PM »
Well the issue of scrounging the countryside is a separate issue of itself!  I'm one of those people who does think that different types of steel or iron can create different colors.  Well, maybe I shouldn't say different colors - perhaps I should say, different 'shades.'  Of course, looking at it scientifically there would very likely be far too many variables present from batch to batch to make any kind of accurate statement as to what one allow may do vs. another, and if you have access to a lab you can probably discount most of the anecdotal theories.  However, I do not have a lab, so most of my hypothesizing is through trial and error while attempting to keep the variables to a minimum; what works for me works for me, that's all I know!  I can state, absolutely, that I have used iron/steel alloys in the creation of AF that have gone green over a relatively short period of time.  Unfortunately, not having lab access, I can't tell you what they were or what was in them, but it was hardware store steel wool.  I do know from practical experience with my own eyes that it can happen, so I try to maintain a modicum of awareness as to what I am dissolving in the stuff when mixing up a batch.

I should also add that there have been commercial varieties available in years past which were made using a percentage of hydrochloric acid in addition to nitric acid, and this stuff has also been known to take on a green tint over time.  Whether this is due to steel alloy, the presence of hydrochloric acid, or both, I have no idea, but it reinforces my personal belief that attention to ingredients as a precautionary step can't hurt anything.

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Offline Bob Roller

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #22 on: March 11, 2012, 07:29:26 PM »
If anyone on the forum needs fine steel cuttings,almost a powder or dust,I usually toss it out after it accumulates in a catch pan under  a horizontal bandsaw. It consists of 0-1,
1144.1018,12L14 and 1075.It IS possibly contaminated with water soluble cutting oil or Relton Rapid Tap. It will cost only the postage if anyone wants it for whatever use it is good for.

Bob Roller

Offline Dennis Glazener

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #23 on: March 11, 2012, 09:10:58 PM »
Quote
I should also add that there have been commercial varieties available in years past which were made using a percentage of hydrochloric acid in addition to nitric acid, and this stuff has also been known to take on a green tint over time.  Whether this is due to steel alloy, the presence of hydrochloric acid, or both, I have no idea, but it reinforces my personal belief that attention to ingredients as a precautionary step can't hurt anything.
I think it has to do with the actual wood the AF is used on. I have some of Eric's AF that I bought several years ago. I have used it on maple that you could not tell anything was on it until you blushed it with heat. I have also seen the wood turn a light greenish color but when blushed with heat all the green disappeared. I have about an inch or so left in the original clear plastic bottle and its still the color of apple cider vinegar.
Dennis

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greybeard

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Re: IT TURNED GREEN!!!!!
« Reply #24 on: March 11, 2012, 09:20:54 PM »
Doesn't Potassium permanganate turn a stock green also?

Purple when wet & brown when it dries.  Bob