Double set triggers

[Eric Smith]

Does anyone know the earliest example of a known gunsmith using doubleset triggers. How far back is the history on these. For example, pre revolutionary war perhaps, or not?

[Pete G.]

I've seen pictures of them on medieval crossbows, so they go back a long way, but I would not put them on a rifle before the post revolutionary period. I much prefer a good single anyway.

[Bob Roller]

A known gunsmith/maker? Known to whom and where? Helmut Mohr in Mayen/Hausen Germany has a dated Jaeger (1671)made by Frederich Riess with the Deutschestechers(double set trigger), He used it in the World Championships in Quantico,Va, in 1980. During the match he was using it in,he got off the last shot needed to finish,turned to me and said the sear arm had just broken off and asked if I could make one. I took the lock home with m and when I got it apart,I saw the mainspring was ready to come off the tumbler so I made a new sear and tumbler for it. When Helmut and his wife Mary showed up a week later,he saw the lock on the mantle and asked if itcould be fixed and I told him to take a look at it and he was a "happy camper".
I don't know how many earlier guns had double set triggers but I think they do go back beyond firearms to the cross bow.

Bob Roller

[smart dog]

Hi,
Double set triggers go way back to the 16th century.  They were very common on Germanic wheellock rifles and later German flintlocks.  There is absolutely no reason not to use them on a pre-Rev War rifle, however, they were probably expensive to make and were not nearly as commonly used as single triggers.  You can see several examples of early American rifles with set triggers in Shumway's "Rifles in Colonial America".  The famous Edward Marshall rifle had them and an early Dickert as well. 

dave

[The other DWS]

Is it reasonable to assume that they are more likely to be found on early guns in the middle states Germanic tradition as opposed to an English or French tradition?

[smart dog]

Hi DWS,
I suspect you are right.  Set triggers were popular wherever rifles were popular.  The Germans have a long tradition of rifle shooting and contests involving accurate shooting.

dave

[flintriflesmith]

This 1773 letter from Christian Oerter is posted in the antique longrifle section of this message board. Oerter explains to his customer how the set triggers work.

There are set triggers on several Amerian rifles  that are likely pre-Revolutionary. If you were asking about European made rifles -- that has already been answered.
Gary

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=20259.0

[Eric Smith]

I was asking about American made rifles. I was wondering if the guns that crossed the Cumberland in the 1760s -70s  would be possibly using set triggers made by Penn. makers.

[Bill of the 45th]

Probably not Pennsylvania, but Scotch, Irish, English smiths from the Tidewater of the Virginia, and the Carolina's.  Just my thought's  the Smiths of Pennsylvania, and New England, I think tended to migrate to the West, towards Pittsburg, and then down the Ohio River route, not South along the Great road.  It would tend to be a clash of cultures, and language, them moving South.

Bill

[DB]

The Boone's moved from Pa to NC.

[JDK]

It was my understanding that he was talking the rifles not the gunsmiths.  Though you could be right. 

Either way early colonial westward migration followed the South bank of the Ohio before settlements moved across it and that is where the Virginians and Pennsylvanians ultimately ran into each other.  J.D.

[Dphariss]

I was asking about American made rifles. I was wondering if the guns that crossed the Cumberland in the 1760s -70s  would be possibly using set triggers made by Penn. makers.

Why would they NOT have set triggers should be the question.

If the technology was maybe 100-200 years old its highly unlikely that some customer wanting set triggers of a rifle would be unable to get them.
It is IMPOSSIBLE to know EXACTLY what occurred or what was ACTUALLY used.
So we have to judge by what was available and what was POSSIBLE. So was it POSSIBLE to have a rifle with DSTs? Without a doubt. Thinking that a gunsmith either trained in Europe in the apprentice system or was trained by someone who had graduated to Journeyman in the European system would not be able to make DSTs is simply ludicrous.
If we demand to find a detailed description of a rifle carried into Kentucky in the 1760s to prove something the HC we might as well wish for video as well. The people that were doing this stuff were not often writng about it at this level of detail. Its likely they did not write about it at all in 99+% of the cases much less detailing what triggers the rifles may or may not have had.
 
Dan

[Dphariss]

Is it reasonable to assume that they are more likely to be found on early guns in the middle states Germanic tradition as opposed to an English or French tradition?

When the British adopted the Infantry Rifle of 1800 (Baker) the barrels were all made by, IIRC, 2 makers. None of the other gunmakers had rifling guides or did not have guides with the proper twist. So while there were rifles being made in England in the 1740s-50s they do not appear to be very common.
The English never had a "rifle culture" as Germany and America did. Even though their military started working toward a military rifle in the 1740s and there were "issue" rifles in some British Infantry Companies during the F&I War.
These often had German barrels and may have even made in Germany in at least some cases.

Dan

[JDK]

I was asking about American made rifles. I was wondering if the guns that crossed the Cumberland in the 1760s -70s  would be possibly using set triggers made by Penn. makers.

Possible? Yes.  Probable? Yes.  Preferred?  Don't know if we will ever know the answer.  If I were going alone or in limited numbers into hostile territory, I would prefer a single trigger.  With proper geometry the single trigger can be light and smooth without having the extra parts/springs of set-triggers.  I believe in the K.I.S.S. system.  j.m.2.c.

J.D.

[Lucky R A]

   In reality when working on old guns, I find a lot more worn sears and tumbler notches than I find DST that are non functional.   It is rare to find DST that do not work and if they are double bar triggers they still operate w/ the front trigger if properly set up.   I think likely cost was more of a factor than function.   I am sure that the gunsmiths themselves had some "Hard Headed Dutch" opinions one way or the other as well...FWIW  Ron

[Eric Smith]

This is a good thread and I appreciate the info and opinions.

[Dphariss]

I was asking about American made rifles. I was wondering if the guns that crossed the Cumberland in the 1760s -70s  would be possibly using set triggers made by Penn. makers.

Possible? Yes.  Probable? Yes.  Preferred?  Don't know if we will ever know the answer.  If I were going alone or in limited numbers into hostile territory, I would prefer a single trigger.  With proper geometry the single trigger can be light and smooth without having the extra parts/springs of set-triggers.  I believe in the K.I.S.S. system.  j.m.2.c.

J.D.

Preferred is not relevant unless we can get inside the guy's head. Not possible.
I prefer a set trigger every time.
This does not mean someone going to Kentucky in 1760 would or would not.
The "Haymaker" rifle which WAS taken to Kentucky before the Rev-War and it has DSTs.
Dan

[Dphariss]

Here is a Bio of the Haymaker rifle's owner

http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/hancock_taylor.html

The rifle
http://www.kentuckylongrifles.com/html/hancock_taylor.html

Which could easily have been to Kentucky and even farther "out" since we only know that the rifle was with him when he was fatally wounded near the Falls of the Ohio. If the rifle was built in the mid-late 1760s it might be very well traveled.


Dan

[JDK]

Preferred is not relevant unless we can get inside the guy's head. Not possible.
I prefer a set trigger every time.
This does not mean someone going to Kentucky in 1760 would or would not.
The "Haymaker" rifle which WAS taken to Kentucky before the Rev-War and it has DSTs.
Dan

Dan, Since preference is "not relevant" thanks for sharing yours. J.D.

[Dphariss]

Preferred is not relevant unless we can get inside the guy's head. Not possible.
I prefer a set trigger every time.
This does not mean someone going to Kentucky in 1760 would or would not.
The "Haymaker" rifle which WAS taken to Kentucky before the Rev-War and it has DSTs.
Dan

Dan, Since preference is "not relevant" thanks for sharing yours. J.D.

But I DID say that it was meaningless in the context of 1760.
 

Dan