Why can't I solder

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have been trying to learn to solder the past couple of days and I cannot even begin to make anything stick.  Or even get the solder to flow.  I have tried the paste solders, as well as the wire solder with flux. 

The pastes start to run and apear to crystalize and seperate.  Leaving no joint at all. 

I cannot get the metal hot enough to melt the wire which is the plumbers solders that you buy at Lowes.  I got a piece of brass red hot touched the wire to it and nothing happened.  I have watched the links that folks have posted, read all the directions, it all seems fairly simple.  What am I doing wrong??

I am using s hardware store propane torch.  Is the fuel wrong?

Coryjoe

[cmac]

What are you heating with? Are you putting flux on both pieces? And are you sanding the pieces before?

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I am sanding and fluxing.  But it is not that the joints are weak.  They are not there at all. Gravity moves the lug. I am using a propane torch. 

[Kermit]

Where's Getz? He gave me some pointers on making ans soldering lugs, and I got it the first time. BTW, Thanks, John!

[smart dog]

Cory,
First, make sure the parts are clean by sanding them.  Wipe them with 99% alcohol if you still think they have dirt or grease on them.  Use a noncorrosive flux and warm the parts before coating with flux.  Do not put on gobs of the stuff, just enough to coat the metal.  Then slowly heat the parts just until the solder flows when touched to the metal.  Do not overheat and with plumbers solder, red hot is way way too hot.  If butt joining pieces, heat from the side opposite where you touch the solder and that will draw the solder between the pieces.  

dave

[Meteorman]

Cory,
Do not overheat... , red hot is way way too hot.  

+1.  you blew right thru the flux & solder's working temperature window.  burned the flux & oxidized everything.  no solder flow.

[docone]

I feel for you. Soldering takes a touch. Practice on parts like what you are going to do.
I found, if I laid solder on each part to be joined, I could sneak up on it. I didn't know of cold fastening, or blind rivets, so I soldered my underrib on. I laid flux on the barrel flat, and started heating up the barrel. I put a dowel in the bore, and laid the barrel on a 2 X 6. This did seem to help. I got the barrel to temp, and the solder flowed. I used lead free solder. Mostly tin actually. I laid the flux only on the part to be soldered. I then did the corresponding flat on the underrib. When cool, I then filed the parts I did not want any solder on. I then got a steel, or conduit pipe that fit the ramrod contour. I got 4 C clamps, and with the solder filed down, I laid the piece in place, on a line of flux. I tightened the clamps, making sure it was straight, and without uneven spots.
Now, I heated the entire piece. I also used an hardware torch. In short time, the solder started flowing. I added solder to fill the voids. When done, and browned, it looked real good. I filed and sanded any drips or overflow.
Flux can burn. This negates its effectiveness. The 2 X 6 acted as a bottom flame, helping heat the piece. The tendancy is to heat directly where the solder is to go, but in reality, heat around where it is to go. The solder will flow to the heat. You can wick it along with the heat as long as you do not burn the flux. Solder will not flow without flux. Neither silver, nor gold, nor lead/tin.
The big thing is to keep it clean. If it burns, cool it down, sand it off, and start again. I like to cut small pieces of solder and lay it on the flat. When it melts into the flat, and flows, you have the heat. Using borax, or boric acid will be too hot for the solder. Good for silver or gold, but not lead or tin or an alloy.
The big thing, is to practice first on something simliar to the part to be soldered. Get used to how the heat affects the solder and metal. Watch how the flux burns and when.
When I teach my students, I have them melt copper wire. I prefer 16ga. I just like to get them used to the way the metal is affected by heating. I then have them sprinkle borax on the melt. I then have them fuse the wires. They do "T" joints, butt joints, and lap joints. No solder, just fusing. Later I have them silver solder the wires.
You will need to find a way to practice the same thing with what you are doing. It will seem impossible untill  you get the feel for it. It will fight everything you do. Then one day, it will just flow together and you will be relaxed.
Watch the heat, don't burn the flux, and take your time.
It will happen.

[iowaflint]

Here's a point that hasn't been covered yet.  When applying heat with a torch, try to heat the parts evenly.  As an example, if soldering lugs onto a barrel, remember that the barrel is the largest part.  Keep the heat source on the barrel more so than the lug.  While both parts need heat, remember to keep the heat on the larger part longer than the smaller.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Well I have been beaten.  Cant seem to get the touch.  The college i teach at has classes for this gonna look into one. 

Thanks all

Coryjoe

[mjm46@bellsouth.net]

I suggest going to Youtube.com and search soldering. I bet you get a lot of real time videos. That may help. Or google soldering videos.

Test the heat by touching the solder wire to the surface,  right before the solder flows solder wire will tend to sort of stick and break off. A little more heat will ususally make it flow.

When I solder lugs, a little coat of solder on the lug and a little coat of solder on the barrel, that's called silvering. Then put the parts together clamp lightly and heat till the solder melts, you'll see a shiney bead of liquid solder form remove heat immediately. let set a couple seconds should be soldered.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I have had a small break through.  I have soldering a scrap lug to a piece of steel.  I did it by heating it from the bottom.  Seemed to work.  Now I need to figure out how to do that with a barrel. 

Regards,

Coryjoe

ps. I still want to take a class.

[JDK]

Just did three the other night.  Made brass tenons with concave bases to put on a O/R barrel.  Method simular to Docone's.  Clamped tenons in vise concave side up.  Fluxed and then heated from the side with the propane torch.  Once hot enough to bubble flux melted the solder into onto the top/concave surface.  File off extra pooled solder so it is concave with the tenon.

I then fluxed the barrel where I wanted the tenon placed the it on the barrel and held it there with a spring clamp.  I heated from the side low on the barrel, heating on an oblique angle to avoid the flame/gas pressure from blowing out my flux/solder as it flowed. 

When the barrel was hot enough the solder melted and as I held the heat there I added more flux.  I could see it suck right in.  Did all three, allowed the barrel to cool then cleaned off and excess.  I used Stay-Brite and their includedd liquid flux.  I was able to give them a sharp rap with a small hammer afterward and they held firm.  Hope that helps.

One more thing, careful how you mount the spring clamp as the lug may move on you as the solder flows.  I believe it was Don Getz who once posted a clamp he fashioned that looks like it would eliminate this problem as it ran parallel to the top of the barrel and had an indentation that held the tenon center.  J.D.

[caliber45]

Brownells SWIF 95; solder paste; dead simple.

[Fred_Dwyer]

Soldering with a torch can be tricky. Part of the problem is the flame in a propane torch is an oxidizing flame. If you melt the solder in the flame the solder doesn't want to flow.
Heat the object, move the flame aside, touch the solder...flow or no? heat some more, move flame aside, touch the solder.
All the new solders I find are no longer "flux-core," we flux the subjects, that is all well and good but the solder isn't fluxed and oxidizes readily in that flame.

[Don Getz]

Go to a flea market and find an old soldering iron.     Clean the surface of your underlug with emery paper, put some flux
on it.    Then heat the soldering iron until solder melts on it.    You will then hold the iron on the undelug until the solder
flows on it, you will find that it is real easy to do.   Then clean the spot on your barrel where you want the underlug to go,
put flux on the barrel, and then hold the underlug in place and apply heat to the barrel until you see the solder melt....
done.............Don

[Dennis Glazener]

When I solder lugs on a barrel, be it a round barrel or flat (mid lug on a B profile 50) I I use 180 grit sand paper to sand the barrel and bottom of the lug. Then I flatten a piece of acid core plumbers solder from a roll my dad had around the shop more than 50 years ago, then I wipe a little solder paste on the barrel and lug, place the flatten piece of solder between barrel/lug, then I use a light clamp that I made out of a piece of old lumber banding (free from Lowe's) to hold light pressure down on the top of the lug. I then use a propane torch to lightly heat the BARREL under the lug (solder flows toward the heat) until the solder flows then quickly take the heat away. Never had one come lose yet.
Dennis

[P.W.Berkuta]

I will not go over what has been said because you have had problems with all of the issues involving the task of soldering -- before you go to class -- go here and rent some DVD's http://smartflix.com/.  They have various subjects that will help you and get some insight as to what you need to do to get a good solder joint along with other good information. Knowledge is a wonderful thing !

[alsask]

The new lead free solder they sell for plumbing requires a fair bit more heat than the old 50/50 lead tin solder.  You can still buy 50/50 solder however, it is sold for tinsmithing.

I find the 50/50 solder far easier to work with than the new stuff.  It flows better.

[Acer Saccharum]

With solder, the flux has to be a match for the solder. Low temp flux will not work with high temp solder.

No solder will flow when too much heat is used. The metal to be soldered gets oxidized, and you have to cool things off and repolish and reflux.

There is a definite knack that needs to be developed, but it's not real hard to do.

There are some tricks to be learned from some of the codgers on this site. But let's keep it to soldering tips, Roger.

When soldering steel with rosin flux, one has to 'tin', or coat, the surfaces with solder before soldering the parts together. Put the coated surfaces together and reheat, with a little flux, and bing, the solder flows, making a perfect joint. Sometimes you need to add a bit of solder to fill the joint.

With acid flux, just place the bright cleaned steel parts together, run the flux into the joint heat then run the solder. Downside is that everything rusts because of the acid, so clean and neutralize afterwards.

[bob in the woods]

I use the same method as Dennis G. and it is not difficult at all. Heat from below , directing the heat to the barrel.Keep the flame moving. When you see the solder melt and the parts move together [ ever so slightly] you are done. Let cool. Perfect job ! 

[Cory Joe Stewart]

Thanks for your help everyone.  I have not had a chance to play with it this week, but hope to today.  I think the problem is that I was concentrating the heat on the solder itself.  Getting it too hot, but not the material around it.  My concern was getting the barrel too hot. 

Regards,

Cory Joe Stewart

[doug]

    I usually tin both pieces first then more flux and heat etc.   If I find a portion or an area that does not want to accept the solder, I take some steel wool swipe it into the flux and use that on the heated area.  It virtually always will spread the solder over the metal presumably by wiping dirty burnt flux away and exposing clean metal.  Final point is to wash your hands before soldering and as a general rule of thumb; cleanliness is next to godliness when soldering of any kind

cheers Doug

[JDK]

My concern was getting the barrel too hot.

Using low temp solder and a propane torch there should be no worries of getting the barrel too hot before the solder flows.  J.D.

[Cory Joe Stewart]

I DID IT!

I am still having trouble with the getting the solder to flow and cover the lug evenly with the wire solder. 

The paste works better for me.  I have gotten one on a barrel and can pick the barrel up by the lug with pliers. 

Thanks everyone

Coryjoe

[greybeard]

coryjo;I did not respond to your thread because you got bout all the info from the leared members here that you needed and I was waiting fer this last posting so I could comment like"I knew you could do it"
    Cheeds.  Bob Reader