Fiberglass, Wood, Stainless, Brass

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Rather than further undermine the thread on ramrod staining, I shall post another on the subject of rod material.

I read with interest the article by the Bevel Brothers, and was surprised at the conclusions.  However, it seems to me the experiment was as much to test the abrasive nature of black powder fouling as much as the rod material.  Since the fouling is not a significant issue for me (subject of many threads on loading and cleaning) I wanted to work on just the rod material itself.  So I took a length of barrel material. clamped it in the vise, and found four lengths of rod in fibergalss, wood, stainless and brass.  I rubbed each rod over a new section of barrel with twenty four strokes.  Here are some pics of the result.











My observation is that the fiberglass cut a deep round groove, the stainless was slightly less damaging, the brass was next, and the wood was the least abrasive, hardly removing the browning.  I was not surprised at the fiberglas but the stainless rod was a complete surprise.  Both the fibergalss and the stainless are very hard and polished, as is the brass.  Wood is wood, and no contest for the sharp corner of a rifle barrel.

My conclusion is that I shall make all my cleaning rods of hickory and get rid of the stainless ones...sorry Brian.  Sometimes the truth sucks.  The only way around it is to use a collar that prevents the rod from contacting the bore.  With my cleaning system ( barrel breech in a bucket of water) that doesn't work.  When i reach the top of the cleaning stroke, the water that is between the tight jagged patch and the muzzle sprays everywhere.  Wood is the only answer.

Hmmmmm...I wonder about those noodle rods......?
[

[Telgan]

Taylor, Is your section of barrell 12 L 14 (leaded), or the harder (4140??)stuff ? Tom

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

That's a valid question Tom.  The first piece I picked out was a section of new Green Mountain barrel.  I know it's harder/tougher that other common barrels, so i found a piece of old "free machining leaded steel" - as section of barrel rifled by Hugh Toenjes.  I think it is 12L14.

[rich pierce]

Would wood full of fouling wear worse?  It's the only absorbant material tested.

[roundball]

I read with interest the article by the Bevel Brothers, and was surprised at the conclusions.  However, it seems to me the experiment was as much to test the abrasive nature of black powder fouling as much as the rod material.  Since the fouling is not a significant issue for me (subject of many threads on loading and cleaning) I wanted to work on just the rod material itself.  So I took a length of barrel material. clamped it in the vise, and found four lengths of rod in fibergalss, wood, stainless and brass.  I rubbed each rod over a new section of barrel with twenty four strokes.  Here are some pics of the result.

Interesting test, thanks.
And I ask this only for the sake of certainty...but I swear it looks like the wood wore more than the brass...maybe it's just the angle of the pic ?

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

RB - you may be right.  They are so close under magnification that you could call it a draw.
Rich - I don't have a hickory rod full of fouling.  That which remains on my rod after a day's shooting hardly makes my hand dirty.  But it surely is more abrasive than the brass which absorbs nothing, and is cut rather than cuts.
For the shooting bench, a brass loading rod, or a steel rod with a brass ferrule is the ticket.
I'd say for cleaning, brass or wood, or steel with the ferrule if you don't mind the mess.

[Long John]

Taylor,

Interesting experiment!  I haven't seen the Bevel Brothers article as I have been traveling but I will now study the matter in more detail.  On my 54 I use a 45/70 shell with the head bored out large enough to accomodate my 7/16ths hickory rod.  On the 36 I use a 32/20 shell.  I like the way they slide down into the bore and stop on the rim.

Best Regards,

John Cholin

[George F.]

Taylor, To me, it looks like the brass rod won with the least abrasion. Or do I need new specks>  ...Geo.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

George, go up to posts....good eye!

[roundball]

I use one piece 3/8" solid brass rods on most MLs for their strength, and the extra weight out front under a 33" barrel helps me with accuracy...when hunting I use a nylon muzzle guide from Builder's Supply...they weigh nothing and are 100% quiet using them while hunting...

[Brian]

Bummer!  Anybody want to buy a 54 inch stainless steel cleaning rod?   

Actually, I always use one of those brass muzzle protectors so it's not really a problem, but the test is an eye opener anyway.  Good information Taylor.  Thanks for sharing.

[Roger Fisher]

Bummer!  Anybody want to buy a 54 inch stainless steel cleaning rod?   

Actually, I always use one of those brass muzzle protectors so it's not really a problem, but the test is an eye opener anyway.  Good information Taylor.  Thanks for sharing.

True Story:: Years ago while Barbara was still shooting she complained about poor accuracy (with her rifle )   I stood back after awhile and watched her process!  (If she shot at 25 yd range I made sure I was shooting way over at 100 yds or at least 50 yds!!
I noticed that when she used the range rod w/the cone shaped brass rod guide she would simply let the brass guide drop against the rifle muzzle - pile driver effect - I then checked her muzzle (of her rifle!~!) and of course it needed a recrown job badly.  I recrowned the ol girl (the rifle not Barbara) and she again was shooting well (very well)   So, beware battering the muzzle with said heavy brass guide.

[roundball]

"...beware battering the muzzle with said heavy brass guide..."

Now that's interesting...I've been using short starters with stainless steel shafts and captive cone shaped brass muzzle guides.
The tapered cones have deep grooves worn around the tapers at different points based on using them with different calibers (like annular rings in a tree)...haven't noticed any accuracy problems...

[Pete G.]

I think Taylor's experiments may be a little more in line with what we would all expect to see, however I think that the "angle of attack" could cause a significant difference in the results also. The wear that the Bevel Brothers found with their wipe-o-lator looks a lot more like the steel rod actually peening the barrel from impact rather than wear. Another factor that neither of these experiments addresses is lubrication, which could make a tremendous difference in the final results. My intuition tells me that a grease type lube (with a clean rod) would show less wear from a sliding contact than these two experiments show, but I can't prove it. The results of both experiments however tell me that I can keep my brass range rod and use it with confidence and when I use the wooden rifle rod I am OK too, and that fiberglass belongs with an in-line zip gun, not any of mine.

[Roger Fisher]

"...beware battering the muzzle with said heavy brass guide..."

Now that's interesting...I've been using short starters with stainless steel shafts and captive cone shaped brass muzzle guides.
The tapered cones have deep grooves worn around the tapers at different points based on using them with different calibers (like annular rings in a tree)...haven't noticed any accuracy problems...

May I suggest that on a miserable day (like today) try the q tip trick.  slide a q tip outwards of your muzzles and see if the rifleing ends catch any fuzz if so a re champhering of the muzzle is in your future!

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Pete I agree 100% with you.  I made a very hard pressure and aggressive rub against the corner of the flats, to see how much of a cut the four materials would make in comparison.  The wear on the muzzle would take a lot longer, but it would wear for sure.  I will continue to use my wooden rods for loading, and I make an effort to push the rod down in sections so it does not contact the muzzle.  I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do about my cleaning rods, since most of mine are steel.  I think a muzzle guide/protector is in order.  Perhaps if the opportunity presents itself, I'll acquire some brass rod and make new ones.

[Roger Fisher]

Pete I agree 100% with you.  I made a very hard pressure and aggressive rub against the corner of the flats, to see how much of a cut the four materials would make in comparison.  The wear on the muzzle would take a lot longer, but it would wear for sure.  I will continue to use my wooden rods for loading, and I make an effort to push the rod down in sections so it does not contact the muzzle.  I'm at a bit of a loss as to what to do about my cleaning rods, since most of mine are steel.  I think a muzzle guide/protector is in order.  Perhaps if the opportunity presents itself, I'll acquire some brass rod and make new ones.

Making such brass rods should be a winter project while the wind howls around your wickiup!   Even the Bevels agreed that a good smooth steel rod of stiff size  with a guide is the thingee!  My range and cleaning rod is one such and with at least 60,000 rounds thru her and still on the mark I'll continue on the same track.    My trailwalk short starter is in fact wood while my 'range' short starter is nylon with a guide.

[David Price]

Taylor,
About twenty years ago I gave my son  a rifle with a 58 cal. Bill Large barrel that was a nail driver.  A few years later it stopped shooting those nice tight groups.  On examination of the muzzle we found that the barrel had a definite wear mark on one side of the muzzle.

At that time he used a wooden rod for cleaning, and had a habit  of bending the rod off to the side when he raised his hand up high.  I had to cut an inch and a quarter off the end to get rid of it.

Consider this.  Wooden rods never stay straight, in fact they usually develop something that resembles  an S turn.  Even if you use a muzzle guide the wood rod will be rubbing on the inside of the bore some were.

The steel  or brass rods will do the same thing if you do not take the care to keep them straight.  I see shooters laying other equipment  on top of there cleaning and loading rods in the trunk of there car all the time, causing them to bend.

I have been using stainless steel rods for years, with a nylon guide.  I take great care to make sure that my rod doesn't get bent.  In my younger years I shot a lot, about fifty lbs.  per year.  Now I only shoot about twenty, but I have never had a problem with muzzle wear.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!!!!!!!!!

[Acer Saccharum]

You gotta realize that Taylor's test rods are clean, new polished.

When they start to pick up and retain abrasives, you will have different results.

In the mold polishing and honing businesses, the brass lap is a fantastic tool. Why brass? Because it's soft enough for abrasives to embed itself into the brass.

Wood will also pick up abrasive, as Rich said.

Fibreglass is abrasive all by itself. I would never, ever, ever, ever, EVER use F-glass in a rifle.

Steel is hard enough not to pick up much abrasive in normal use. For shooting at the range, I use a polished steel rod, with a cone muzzle protector. The rod seldom touches the bore.

Taylor, you bring up a sore point about all the water squishing out around the cone. I've had same experience. How about making a cone with a drain on the side? C'mon, all you brains. We have an invention hatching right here! When you go to sleep tonight, you will dream of women, I mean, of perforated patented anti squish muzzle cones.

Give us the full report in the morning.

Or, maybe not.

Acer.

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Tom, I think you are on to something.  And great minds think alike, because I thought "all the guide needs is a couple of fine grooves lengthwise to allow the pressure to disburse, rather than all the water above the jagged patch being forced out when it gets to the top."  Make it so, No. 1.

[Acer Saccharum]

You were supposed to sleep on it, Taylor.

hahaha, and yes, I've had a beer, and I'm pretty happy about it.

Acer

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

You don't know happy, Tom.  Daryl gave me a bottle of 151 overproof rum (Appleton's) for my B day, and I had a sip before dinner tonight.  Yahoooooo!

[Acer Saccharum]

Overproof? Does that mean rejected/not suitable for consumption?

It also looks like the stainless rod ate a big hole in the side flat. imagine THAT happening in the bore? no stainless rods for me.

Acer

I am swift, sometimes, but not tonight.

[Roger Fisher]

Overproof? Does that mean rejected/not suitable for consumption?

It also looks like the stainless rod ate a big hole in the side flat. imagine THAT happening in the bore? no stainless rods for me.

Acer

I am swift, sometimes, but not tonight.

Wot? Wait a minute! Reread your reply #18 (Darn it I felt vindicated with that one) Now you say "no stainless rods for me" or were you just joshing?  Or was it some of that 'overproof'?   

[Mike R]

Ouch!  Unfortunately you left out the only non-wood rod I use at all--an Anodized Aluminum rod that I use on the range and for cleaning. Al like brass is a soft metal and the anodized surface is smooth and does not seem to "carry" fouling and dust as much as wood. Dust would seem to be a bigger factor than BP fouling as it is largely quartz silt [typically] and much harder than steel. I am careful to wipe the rods down before, during and after use.