Rifle No. 2, Two piece patch boxes for Lancaster (Reading box on Lancaster ?)

[JohnTyg]

This is my second rifle, (first was a Turner Kickland kit I did as a teen in 1971), and I am trying to recover from an architectural mistake.

Was pretty careful to layout my butt plate exactly where I wanted it.  When finally inlet to my satisfaction the top had moved forward about 1/4".  Didn't think anything of it at first, but the more I looked at it, it just didn't look right.  Noted that most originals had the flat of the plate perpendicular to the axis of the butt.  Felt that a 4 piece patch box would draw attention to the butt plate being tilted forward, and thought a two piece would look better.

Found a rifle that had an even more pronounced forward placement of the butt than mine and actually looked good with a 2 piece box.  This was listed as a York Co. rifle in "Kentucky Rifles & Pistols 1750-1850".  Fell in love with what I thought was a generic symmetrical York patch box that I could use on a Lancaster. Spent 2 days forming my first hinge out of .06 bass and was about to cut out the final when, to my disappointment, found this same rifle in RCA listed by J Shriver as a reading rifle. I am thinking that this distinctive patch box probably only belongs on a reproduction on this particular gun. Any thoughts on this or alternatives?

Would also welcome any general comments prior to proceeding (critical comments appreciated).
The stock is a very hard sugar maple I obtain through Tiger Hunt.  The barrel is a Rice B weight (replaces the Getz I ruined, its a long story). The butt plate is a 20 year old casting that I flattened and put on the flats and cut in a crude wedding band. The side plate is from scratch and the muzzel cap is from one peace of .06 brass I formed over an iron pipe (earlier posting).

[t.caster]

Hard to see any problem from your pics! Don't obsess, you might be the only one who sees it.
Good patchbox choice!

[Jim Kibler]

John,

I think you are doing a very nice job on your rifle.  I like the box choice and think it would be just fine for your rifle.  Although it can be painful, being obsessive has likely helped you to do the nice work you've shown.  Great job for a second rifle.  I can see by your pencil marks, that you intend to cut the lock and sideplate panels down some.  This will be good.  Your ramrod groove also seems to be very deep.  It's good to shoot for a depth in the range of 1/3rd the ramrod diameter.  This will help slim the forestock up.  I agree that being mindful of the angle the butplate extension is pointed is very important.  If it's pointing downward, it can spoil the flow of the butstock.  You have done a good job dealing with your butplate placement.  Keep going!

Jim

[G-Man]

I think the patchbox is a fine choice.   I don't say much with regard to Pennsylvania rifles but that rifle has always been a favorite of mine.  

I may be wrong, but wasn't Shriver believed to have been working in what was then York County (the part that is now Adams County) -around the time this rifle was probably made - 1780-ish, give or take a few years?  Or am I getting two different Shrivers mixed up?  Anyway, it seems like a good choice to me.  The folky engraving on this box is like no other I have seen and very charming.

My ancestors left that area for Kentucky in the early 1780s - always sort of had wishful thinking that Shriver rifle might reflect what they might have carried west.  They were Dutch farmers though and in their case a smoothbore might have been just as likely.  

Guy  

[docone]

I always thought, the point of the patchbox pointed at the breechplug.
I really like the lines on that rifle. Good inlaying.
Great job.

[wattlebuster]

I think you are doing a fantastic job an Im looking forward to seeing the finished rifle

[JohnTyg]

Jim,
  Will plan to  slim down that  molding to expose more of the ramrod. Also will probably move the upper forestock  down just a touch from the midline of the barrel.  You are right, being obsessive can be a little painful at times (but it also helps makes a better anesthesiologist). Wasn't happy with the gaps in my first hinge (never file without good lighting) but will try to live with it.  Think I can move the metal around a little to minimize it.  Probably also in for a frustrating time deciding on designs for carving.

G-man,
I think you are right about Shriver. York is just across the river so figured someone working in Lancaster could borrow some of those influences. Think I'll go ahead and use this design.

docone,
Thanks for the comments,  I think the point of the patch box usually would or should point toward the midline of the wrist?  Some English rifles had boxes that pointed more more toward the breechplug? Any more thoughts on this?

[Jim Kibler]

Sometimes it is better to have the box pointing lower than the breechplug.  The tendency to want to place the front of the box high is something often encountered by those just getting started.  The Shriver box / butstock is a good example of one that looks best if aimed lower.

[AeroE]

Leave the aft end of the patchbox cover where it is now, rotate the lid, and point the end of the finial at the aft point of the lock panel.  I bet it will look great.

[docone]

Ya doin some fine work there.
I am definately behind you with that stuff. Making a little dust, mostly mistakes!
The metal work is no biggee for me. I am still learning the wood work.
You might try, however, moving the finial towards the tang, or rear of the lock, and just see what it looks like.
You going to engrave that patchbox? I made an engraver from a 1/4" square file. It works great! Real easy to chase. Now if I only had any talent with illustrations.
I guess that is next.
If you engrave, remember, turn the work, don't you turn. Some great ideas on vises on U-Tube.
Good work so far.

[JohnTyg]

Gentlemen,

Always appreciate any comments.

If you look at the first foto of the Shriver box you will see that the box is actually angled down more than mine.  I think the more one looks at these you get accustomed to seeing them maybe with the same eye as the original makers.  I agree with Mr. Kibler that the Shriver box looks best as Shriver placed it. I'll plan on keeping the final of the box at the midline of the wrist and keep the tail where it is or possibly place it even a touch higher.  Once the box is in I'll finish shaping and moldings and post some pics prior to carving.

OK maybe I'll post a pic of its position prior to inletting and get a consensus!

Had though about making my own graver from a file especially for the heavier lettering on top the barrel.

John

[Glenn]

I dont see anything wrong at all with your patchbox choice and it's design is quite nice.  Seems to be a perfect size for the area in which it is being inlet.  The quality of your build already appears exceptional.  Keep going with what you already have.  It can only get better as you get close to finishing the whole gun.

[JohnTyg]

Thanks for the comments and encouragement.

As to the quality of the build I hope that the final finish will hide some of my errors as well as the photos do. 
Have made multiple mistakes here from lack of experience, had to dutch in a little wood behind the hammer, had to relocate my front trigger guard pin, ruined an earlier stock blank (band sawed through what would have been the lock plate), etc, etc.   Getting the final look right is my biggest focus.  I'd rather have a rifle that looks correct with imperfect work than vise-versa.   Knowing when to stop and accept my results has been a problem. Just made my perfectly adequate patch box hinge worse by trying to make it better.  probably a couple of weeks before I post any results.

Best regards,

John

one more foto (only one I have that shows the complete rifle)

[JohnTyg]

Hello again,

Finally, on my third attempt, made a hinge that I could live with.
Made out of 0.06" brass.
The final is not as delicate as the Shriver box and it is a five knuckled hinge not seven as the original. After spending this much time to make a serviceable hinge, I am really impressed at the workmanship of the original.

Looks a little wide to me.  It's 40.5mm wide.  Scaled up I think the original was about 38mm.
Will probable cut it down untill it looks right.  Probably also slim down the elements in the final.

Plan on inletting it in the position shown.  Think that it will probably be a nuisance to inlet well.

Thoughts?

John

[D. Taylor Sapergia]

Your second rifle?  My word...relax!!!!  You're doing very well indeed.  I think the angle you have laid out is just fine.  Don't try to re-invent the wheel.  Use the example of the original.  A bigger box lid will provide a bigger compartment...holds more stuff.  I rarely have enough room for everything I like to put in the box.             

[JohnTyg]

"relax"

Ha Ha,  My wife agrees with you!

I know I'm a little obsessive, but  I am having a terrific time seeing how well I can do with this project. 

Best regards,

John

[JTR]

I think you're doing a fine job as well, so keep at it!

As for the patchbox hinge, next time use thinner brass for the box. Say about .03 more or less, like most of the originals. I'd bet the old guys would think a box made of .06 brass was a waste of good metal!

John

[JohnTyg]

John,

Thanks for the advice, I'll definitely  use a thinner brass next time,  .06 was fine for the nose cap as this allowed me to file out any imperfections in forming it, but it was a real PIA for the hinge,  (I think I got the recommendation for the .06 from Gunsmith of Greenville County).

Thanks,
John

PS:  I thew in a bit of eye candy in the photo of the patch box, heres a better picture of a G. W. Sutter lock.  Didn't know what it was till I discovered your site, though it was an original.

[Robby]

Very nice slim and trim gun. I'd slim down the patch box to match.
Robby

[JohnTyg]

Patch box slimmed down (40.5mm to 37mm) and ready to inlet.

Need to get going with this as I am noticing some wood shrinkage around the tang (inlet about 7 years ago).

Plan some basic carving (once I figure out how) and will finish it up and post some pics when complete.  Thanks for the helpful comments and encouragement!

John

[dogcreek]

The rifle displays good craftsmanship. And the photos are very good as well. Keep up the good work. I'm looking forward to seeing the finished rifle.

[JohnTyg]

I'm probably beating a dead horse with this thread but just "rediscovered" a mini chisel I used to place the barrel key inlets. Maybe most have come up with this, or something better, on their own but just in case here is a counter sunk wood drill with the end ground down.  They made excellent small chisels!  Found the curved chisels I obtained to us for carving fit the curve of the patch box design, still needed a small chisel to clean up with.

After reading the thread on brass parts and finishing think I'll need to leave this patch box in for finishing.

John

[JDK]

Nice, clean work.  J.D.

[B Shipman]

I agree with Talor. It's all good- relax. You're better off modifying the trigger so it doesn't look stock.

[JohnTyg]

I agree with Taylor also  (I do think I slimmed down the box a tad too much).  Do plan on modifying the trigger.

John