Author Topic: "The Masterpiece Rifle" (Read 38023 times)

bob in the woods · « **Reply #25 on:** March 28, 2012, 05:17:20 PM »

The term "Masterpiece" is , strictly speaking, a Guild requirement. That's all. There is no ego to it.
In any other sense,it would be a purely a subjective label. Nothing to argue about here. There is no denying the skill involved in the building of this rifle. My taste [subjective ] however, runs more to the gun Mike B. has displayed.

As a luthier, there are those who embrace "pearl" and lavish it on their creations. I prefer appointments to be rather understated. Ultimately, the instrument must stand on it's own regardless of the embellishments. I look at rifles in the same way.

TMerkley · « **Reply #26 on:** March 28, 2012, 05:17:34 PM »

Hugh,

I admire your work and craftmanship, I wish that some day, I will be able to produce something as fine as that!

For a dumb country boy from souther Indiana, the term masterpiece was usually used when referring to what was left behind in the outhouse. Not on this one, Your work is truly wonderful!

54Bucks · « **Reply #27 on:** March 28, 2012, 11:53:45 PM »

Quote from: Jim Kibler on March 28, 2012, 04:13:33 PM

Hugh,

It seems that at the heart of this discussion is a debate concerning the merits of your rifle. Are these open for debate / discussion? I realize you have a lot invested in this and a public debate might be uncomfortable, but just thought I would ask.

Jim

I think there is no debate! The subject of this thread is in parenthesis. The author also explained the purpose/source of of the subject (ACGG). Someone else chose to parody this thread with one of their own. Since that subject is the source of your question, I suggest that thread is the place to debate/discuss the merits of his work. I suppose a new thread can be started for anyone who wishes others to discuss/debate the merit of their work. I can't imagine who will establish the criterion that will be accepted and followed to determine a rifle/guns merit.

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #28 on:** March 29, 2012, 12:10:31 AM »

Jim Kibler: I am honored that YOU have chimed in on this thread - I have been an admirer of your work for some now. This "Masterpiece Rifle" which will be on display at this yrs. NRA show in St. Louis has been critiqued and examined by all manner of gun enthusiasts including, at least, 4 past presidents of the KRA - all who have endorsed it as one of the best examples of a "contemporary" longrifle to date. It has been seen and examined by some America's best center-fire maker's as well - all have been congratulatory in response. I accept any criticizim with appropriate welcome. However understand that when this rifle was made I had no originals to reference to in my shop and I attempted to copy no one! I only had photos in a few books to reference to. Also there were no museums to go to for reference. I had seen a number of originals in my travels but was never rich enough to collect one, two or three. I built this rifle , case and accessories out of my own "savvy".
So have at it with any critique - the rifle , case and accessories can stand on their own merits.
Hugh Toenjes

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #29 on:** March 29, 2012, 01:07:13 AM »

Hugh, I'm curious who the four past Presidents of the KRA are who saw your rifle. I'm a past President of the KRA myself and I see the others fairly often, so I would like to ask them their impressions of your gun. First hand knowledge is often the best. From what I can see from your pictures, you are a talented craftsman.

Frank

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #30 on:** March 29, 2012, 01:25:30 AM »

Lafreniere, Welcome to the ALR! I also appreciate your comment of support! Thanks, Hugh Toenjes

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #31 on:** March 29, 2012, 02:15:39 AM »

Frank: Personal e-mail sent

Fullstock longrifle · « **Reply #32 on:** March 29, 2012, 02:58:14 AM »

Thank you Hugh, got it.

Frank

Jim Kibler · « **Reply #33 on:** March 29, 2012, 04:43:10 AM »

Quote from: Blacksmoke on March 29, 2012, 12:10:31 AM

Jim Kibler: I am honored that YOU have chimed in on this thread - I have been an admirer of your work for some now. This "Masterpiece Rifle" which will be on display at this yrs. NRA show in St. Louis has been critiqued and examined by all manner of gun enthusiasts including, at least, 4 past presidents of the KRA - all who have endorsed it as one of the best examples of a "contemporary" longrifle to date. It has been seen and examined by some America's best center-fire maker's as well - all have been congratulatory in response. I accept any criticizim with appropriate welcome. However understand that when this rifle was made I had no originals to reference to in my shop and I attempted to copy no one! I only had photos in a few books to reference to. Also there were no museums to go to for reference. I had seen a number of originals in my travels but was never rich enough to collect one, two or three. I built this rifle , case and accessories out of my own "savvy".
So have at it with any critique - the rifle , case and accessories can stand on their own merits.
Hugh Toenjes

Well, I would dearly love to share my thoughts, but It's pretty clear to me now that would be a "no win" situation.

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #34 on:** March 29, 2012, 06:32:20 PM »

Quote from: Old Ford2 on March 26, 2012, 03:06:25 PM

Hello Blacksmoke,
Would you please grace us "gun hackers" a few more pictures and descriptive comments about your fine looking rifle.
Which we can only dream of making or owning.
My most sincere compliments!
Old Ford ( Fred )

Fred: Finally I have a few minutes to put together a few more photos and a 4 page article the I wrote for Gun Maker magazine a few yrs ago. Here is a link for you and anyone else who is interested. Hugh Toenjes
http://s117.photobucket.com/albums/o77/Blacksmoke_2007/Masterpiece%20Rifle/

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #35 on:** March 29, 2012, 06:38:10 PM »

Jim Kibler: Sorry to hear that you feel that way - I was really looking forward to what you had to say regarding this project. Anyway I did enjoy reading your threads on color case hardening. Your expertise is a valuable asset on this site! Hugh Toenjes

Joe S · « **Reply #36 on:** March 30, 2012, 01:35:56 AM »

Hugh

Have you ever considered renaming your rifle? “Masterpiece” just doesn’t come across very well, especially considering that there are rifles that are executed every bit as well as yours posted on this site on a regular basis. All of these other rifles are masterpieces, although no one else calls them that. Frankly speaking, calling your rifle a masterpiece comes across as self-serving and egotistical, although I’m sure that’s not your intent. It seems to me that it would be more interesting to discuss some of the unusual design features of the rifle, than it would be to just get flogged because of the way you present yourself. If you can’t think of anything else, you could just call the rifle Bill, or George or maybe even Sue.

I would be particularly interested in Jim Kibbler's comments, so I hope he changes his mind.

DB · « **Reply #37 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:28:32 AM »

My understanding of this beautifull rifle is that this is his personal masterpiece, not to set it above other makers work, only to set it above his own. I'm sure every maker has a personal best.

Avlrc · « **Reply #38 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:42:24 AM »

I have been jealous a few times in my life , but never let it show! You guys crack me up.

westbj2 · « **Reply #39 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:21:21 PM »

I saw this rifle a number of years ago when it was brought into the shop. That was before the "Masterpiece" label was attached. I was handed a pair to white gloves when I went to pick it up. I never had to wear gloves to pick up a Purdey so I just looked without handling.
Jim Westberg

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #40 on:** March 30, 2012, 03:54:01 PM »

Joe S: It seems to me that a lot of people on this thread are not understanding the word: " masterpiece".
A reliable dictionary of the English language gives the following meaning: "A piece of work made by a person aspiring to the rank of "master" in a Guild as proof of competence". The rifle in question fits that description exactly - so to rename it would deny it's proper position in the realm of contemporary made longrifles. To date I have seen no other rifles posted on this site which have been submitted to a nationally recognized Guild for recognition and acceptance into that Guild - thereby achieving the status of "masterpiece". So if other people are not calling their rifles or pistols "masterpieces" it is most likely that they have submitted their guns for scrutiny by said Guild. However if such guns exist and I have missed seeing them then I encourage folks to come forward with their Guild approved "masterpieces" and publish them so that we can all be enriched.
Hugh Toenjes

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #41 on:** March 30, 2012, 04:00:22 PM »

Jim: The white gloves are still mandatory!

At the point when you saw my rifle it was uncased and it had not been submitted to the Guild for scrutiny - it was not a "masterpiece" then! Hugh Toenjes

Joe S · « **Reply #42 on:** March 30, 2012, 05:32:15 PM »

Quote

It seems to me that a lot of people on this thread are not understanding the word: " masterpiece". A reliable dictionary of the English language gives the following meaning: "A piece of work made by a person aspiring to the rank of "master" in a Guild as proof of competence".

I agree. Unfortunately, lots of people are not understanding masterpiece in that sense. By the way, I’ve seen that rifle in person, and the craftsmanship is spectacular. The case and accoutrements are just as good as the rifle.

Just out of curiosity, what have you built since the masterpiece?

Blacksmoke · « **Reply #43 on:** March 30, 2012, 05:49:28 PM »

Joe: In between restorations I am finishing up a little "ladies muff pistol" for my daughter. The project was started some yrs. ago and it gets worked on in small increments - unfortunately. It will ,also, be cased with all accessories. Following that project I have a pair of "gentleman's target pistols" partly finished - they will also be cased! Both sets of pistols will have Damascus barrels and be decorated in gold vine inlays as well as silver wire inlay designs in the stocks. Yes - I will post them on this site when they are finished!

Hugh Toenjes

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #44 on:** March 30, 2012, 06:20:00 PM »

I really have to question this Guild committee that judges work. Who are they? What is their gunbuilding experience? would any of us ever heard of them or saw their work before? I suspect this committee judges modern bolt guns and has little to absolutely no experience dealing with muzzleloaders, they couldn't with as many architectural flaws and esthetic mistakes as this particular gun has. Haven't any of you actually LOOKED at the pictures of this gun? Can't you guys get past the wire work (which is technically well executed by the way) and see what this gun actually looks like? Shiny glitz does not a masterpiece make, no matter what some obviously unqualified guild committee says.
Bring this gun to Dixon's and enter it in the master class and see what happens. At least those folks no a little about what a muzzleloader is supposed to look like.
Listen, I have no problem with this gun as long as it isn't shoved under my nose over and over again with the "Masterpiece" monicker attached to it.

lafreniere · « **Reply #45 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:23:42 PM »

Mr Toenjes has said he is perfectly willing to discuss the rifle.
He has also stated what the term masterpiece signifies here.

Kermit · « **Reply #46 on:** March 30, 2012, 07:29:42 PM »

I was sort of interested in this thread for a while. However, since it seems to have become argumentative and seemingly pointless, it's time to stop--at least for me. It's become a big yawn. Sorry, but if others are allowed to be opinionated about the gun and the attendant language, I'm entitled to an opinion about opinionatedness. And if that's not a word heretofore, it is now.

Maybe it's time to settle things with an honorable duel--one we won't have to watch.

Bored. Leaving now.

Mike Brooks · « **Reply #47 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:23:00 PM »

Quote from: Kermit on March 30, 2012, 07:29:42 PM

I was sort of interested in this thread for a while. However, since it seems to have become argumentative and seemingly pointless, it's time to stop--at least for me. It's become a big yawn. Sorry, but if others are allowed to be opinionated about the gun and the attendant language, I'm entitled to an opinion about opinionatedness. And if that's not a word heretofore, it is now.

Maybe it's time to settle things with an honorable duel--one we won't have to watch.

Bored. Leaving now.

It is niether argumentative nor pointless, in fact it is educational. It could be far more educational with an honest critique of the gun, which I could keep brief and too the point, if the moderators would allow it. I know Hugh wouldn't get it, but maybe some of the rest of you fans of Hugh's gun would learn what makes a gun good...or not .
If you are bored and don't want to watch, just don't click on the thread anymore.

MarkEngraver · « **Reply #48 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:30:41 PM »

Mike,

If you want to know about the American Custom Gunmakers Guild, I would suggest you go to their web site and read about them. http://www.acgg.org/
I have shown with the ACGG/FEGA joint show in Reno, NV since yr. 2000

Yes, they are more about the Bolt and Single Shot Rifles, and Shotguns , but they are not ignorant as to quality of workmanship.
This is what Hugh's Rifle was judged on , Quality of Workmanship.
Does the work show "mastery" of the skills necessary for a high quality custom product ?
Hugh's rifle does, without question.

Now I must admit, that there are things about the gun I would have done differently to meet my sense of artistic balance, but that does not negate the fact that the "piece" is done by a person who has "mastery" of his medium and therefore can be refereed to as a "masters-piece".

Mike, I would say the same for your work also, and a host of others on the ALR forum.

Mark Swanson, engraver

Dr. Tim-Boone · « **Reply #49 on:** March 30, 2012, 08:35:47 PM »

Mike, as far as I know we have never objected to critique of guns. We do object to personal insult and attack... to anyone.

Everyone....... is entitled to an opinion about the merits of a gun. we in fact try to promote well intentioned and constructive critique.... use descriptive language to help us see the particular aspects of the gun that you like or dislike, think appropriate or inappropriate......... If it is honestly educational for all involved.. that fits the purpose of this site....

All of us also need to ask ourselves: "Would you want your kids to see what I write??" BEFORE we post........ No need to insult the person who made the gun.. there are plenty of other forums for that

News:

Author Topic: "The Masterpiece Rifle" (Read 38023 times)

54Bucks

Joe S

DB

westbj2

Joe S

lafreniere

MarkEngraver