Proper size of graver face

[DFHicks]

Yet another question as I attempt to learn to do some simple engraving.  How big (or probably how small) should the graver face be?  I have learned to put in really small heels but am still getting the plowed effect when I try doing small circles or tight curves.  The face on my gravers is what I get when I use the Lindsay guide _ 3/16". 
Thanks again for your patient replies and all of the good information. __ DF

[kutter]

The face can be any size. You only cut with how much of it it you want to cut with. You can do very fine work with a tool that has a very big face. You just don't use it all,,you just cut with the very tip/point of the tool. The rest goes along for the ride. Some engravers don't like the extra face,,they see it as a distraction while cutting and therefore grind the tip to a minimum.
A small face is easier to sharpen if you are not using a fixture or jig of some kind. Plus all that extra material is just that,,extra that has to be taken off each time you sharpen but it's not doing you any cutting.

Sometimes the extra face is needed depending on the style of scroll or border work.
If you are doing very wide flaired lines or facet border type cuts, you'l need the extra cutting face to make those type of cuts.

If the graver is plowing up behind the cut as you turn the corners and radius, you need to increase the lift to the tool to keep the bottom edge from tearing up your cut line as it stears around it.
Increase the heel angle so your hand holding the tool is farther off of the work.

A long heel will plow the cut on turns,,but so will a short one that's too low of an angle,,especially if you are cutting lines that are more than just a few .000" deep.

[Acer Saccharum]

if you're using a square graver, you can get ragged cuts when making turns. But the tool cuts fine on the straight lines. Why?

It's got to do with the way the tool is being held as it goes thru the curve.

I try to explain it like this: I want you to try a little exercise.

You are going to engrave two circles.

For the first circle, cut with the tool rolled slightly inward, like you're riding a bicycle, leaning in toward the center of the circle. The circle will come out all raggedy.

For the second  circle, make the cut with the tool leaning slightly away from the center of the circle. Very counter-intuitive for us bicycle riders. But the circle cuts clean.

Why the difference?

In the first case, it's the back edge of the graver rubbing on the cut line, roughing it all up.  In the second case, the the back edge of the graver is tracking in the cut, without contacting the edges of the cut.

[Acer Saccharum]

If I want to make parallel lines, as in closely spaced shading lines, I narrow the width of the graver face so I know how much to step over for each cut.

Anywhere from 1/16 to 3/32 wide is fine for most regular work. If the face width is too big, it hides too much of what you're trying to engrave.

[Ron Scott]

Could you post a photo of the resulting cut's and the graver?  I use the Lindsay sharpener as well and don't have the problem  you are describing. It is possible that the heel may yet be too large.

[Captchee]

 i think Ron maybe right . if  the heel should not be to large . all you need is a couple passes  on the stone

[NSBrown]

I too am with Ron. A short heel can be 1/64th of an inch, or much less. A longer heel than that, is better when cutting long straight (border) lines. Gravers are like chisels...you need more than one. Each will have its purpose, and having several will also make it easier to learn which graver will become your workhorse. Every painter has a favorite brush.

[Acer Saccharum]

I often use a .005 long heel on steel, maybe .01 on soft brass. The heel does not need to be very long to work at all.

on the image below, at the top right is the face view and heel view of the square graver. Send me an email, and I can send you the PDF.   PM me, or email me at: tcurran (at) fairpoint (dot) net.

[kutter]

Heel length,,just a few .000" long as A/S states.
Getting the angle correct (tool lift) has much to do with keeping the back side from plowing up your cut on the turns.

A longer heel and lower angle to it can be very useful for cutting the long straight border lines. The fact that the back side of the tool is riding in the cut already made is what is helping keep the line straight. Try and turn with that tool and it will tear up the cut.

A short heel of nothing more than a few .000" in length is plenty strong for cutting steel.
Using a fixture and power hone now as I've been cutting w/ carbide for many years,,I sharpen most everything the same way now.

I sharpen the face of the tool with the hone running.
Then turn it OFF and put the heel on the tool by just setting the edge on the hone (while in the fixture and and adjusted to the right angle) and turning the hone disc by hand perhaps a 1/4 turn altogether,,with gentle hand pressure on the tool.
That's more than enough to put a heel on the tool.
It doesn't take much..you don't want very much..

I may change the angles for the material being cut,,but the sharpening technique stays the same.

I also 'blunt' the sharp point especially on carbide when working on extremely hard alloys.
Something you most likely don't get in to here. But it works on HS tools as well that have a hard time keeping their edge on some steels. Older cast and wrought iron can be tough on the point.
You'd think it would negate any cutting action but instead it strengthens the point and prolongs cutting life of it.

The shorter the heel the easier it is to keep from gouging up the cut as you turn with the back edge of the tool,,and the higher the tool is lifted/held (heel angle) while working is the other half of the trick to keep the cuts nice and clean.
But there's a limit to the heel angle where you start to loose efficiency in the edge of the tool. Too high a lift and you can't get a nice cutting angle on the edge.

It's a balancing act and every engraver has a favorite chisel,,grasp on the tool handle, and angle on the bit. You just have to experiment with in the fuzzy borders of what is too much and too little when it comes to the angles and lengths regarding tool sharpening techniques.

[Acer Saccharum]

Kutter, so much of what you say ids spot-on.

Unfortunately, until you've experienced it, the inexperienced hand  has no concept of what you're talking about. It's one of those things that you won't get until you have it in your hand and it's working.

This illustrates the problem of trying to explain a hands-on process with words.

There is nothing like engraving lessons, taught by a professional teacher. It makes all the difference in the world. Things that would take twenty emails to explain (and still fail), can be taught in a few moments one-on-one.

[DFHicks]

Once again thanks to all of you for sharing your thoughts, knowledge and experience.  First of all an explanation to Ron Scott who asked for a picture of my Lindsey graver sharpening setup.  The 3/16" face is what I got because the amount I ground off of the three gravers I have made.  I did all 3 of these at once and took down the top the same amount with the small template.  then when I put on the large template and put in the 45" face the same amount on each of them.  I did not grind off any more because it seemed the HSS bits (not 3/32" as I stated in my question) I bought were really wearing down the course stone.  Sorry my wording was not very clear.
Now the answer to my problem is definitely the heels being too large.  The ones I put in are 1/32" - 1/16"  and I didn't have a problem when I was just practicing straight (more or less) lines.  Being a novice I thought 1/32" was short but it is  .031 which is triple what Acer recommends for soft brass.  I had some time to work with your information this afternoon and it really helped.  Kutter describes how he does it and I tried something similar _ just gently drag the edge of the graver a couple of inches on the finest diamond stone with the Lindsay system and that seems to be enough.
In closing I can't say enough good about the Lindsay system.  Without it I would have simply given up on learning any engraving.   __ Regards ,DF