Author Topic: Percussion Lock With No Half Cock (Read 11452 times)

Chris Treichel · « **on:** March 23, 2012, 03:39:45 PM »

Came accross a percussion lock marked "Richards" on fleabay... the tumbler only has one notch on it so no half cock possible. Too much engraving for it to be a junk lock... Is this the type of lock that was combined with an external "safety" type device?

Bob Roller · « **Reply #1 on:** March 23, 2012, 03:49:42 PM »

Chris,
A lot of European target rifles had no half cock or "safety". If there is no evidence of a sliding safety or stalking safety it is probably a lock for a target rifles. Can you see if there ever was a half cock by looking at the tumbler? I have made several Schuetzen rifle locks minus the half cock.

Bob Roller

T*O*F · « **Reply #2 on:** March 23, 2012, 04:08:18 PM »

It's a lock off a Richards double barrel shotgun. Commonly, the left side lock had no half cock, but one often finds right locks without one too.

Lucky R A · « **Reply #3 on:** March 23, 2012, 04:25:30 PM »

A lot of the inexpensive late period percussion rifles were equipped with locks that had no half cock. Most of these guns were also equipped with a single bar set trigger. I don't know if they carried them with the hammer at full cock and the trigger unset, or with the hammer resting on a percussion cap. It certainly would seem to be a dangerous arrangement either way. I guess this might explain some of the accidental discharges one reads in historical accounts. Apparently there were a lot less lawyers back then....

squire · « **Reply #4 on:** March 23, 2012, 06:33:58 PM »

Oh they had plenty of lawyers, what they didn't have were juries willing to award large sums of money to people dumb enough to walk around with a loaded gun and a hammer resting on a live cap.

D. Taylor Sapergia · « **Reply #5 on:** March 23, 2012, 06:54:38 PM »

I have a set of blue print plans by Wayne Robideau (sp?) of a S. Hawken rifle. He drew the plans of the lock internals without a half cock notch.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #6 on:** March 23, 2012, 08:12:43 PM »

Most American percussion rifles had no half cock and double set triggers. Some were poorly arranged and had to have the triggers set before the lock could be cocked. Unless a fly is incorporated into a two position lock,the likely event would be the sear catching in the half cock and damaging the tumbler or the sear
or both. I would imagine a flintlock which should be carried primed and at half cock would have the triggers set IF the rifle was equipped with them. Modern locks all have a fly of some kind as far as I know.

Bob Roller

Hudnut · « **Reply #7 on:** March 23, 2012, 10:57:29 PM »

Quote from: Chris Treichel on March 23, 2012, 03:39:45 PM

Came accross a percussion lock marked "Richards" on fleabay... the tumbler only has one notch on it so no half cock possible. Too much engraving for it to be a junk lock... Is this the type of lock that was combined with an external "safety" type device?

Could it be a rebounding lock from a cartridge gun? Lots of Belgian shotguns marked "Richards", "W. Richards".

I have a Pennsylvania Rifle Works percussion rifle with single acting set triggers and no half cock. Triggers can be set after the hammer is cocked. I'd hate to think it was carried with the hammer down on a cap; the option of carrying it cocked with the trigger unset wouldn't be much of an alternative.

Chris Treichel · « **Reply #8 on:** March 24, 2012, 12:22:21 AM »

Thank you for the information. Seems I learn something new every day.

Chris Treichel · « **Reply #9 on:** March 24, 2012, 12:37:03 AM »

Probably would help if I added the pictures... its this one. http://www.ebay.com/itm/Black-Powder-Gun-Part-Muzzle-Loader-Lock?item=230763337709&cmd=ViewItem&_trksid=p5197.m7&_trkparms=algo%3DLVI%26itu%3DUCI%26otn%3D5%26po%3DLVI%26ps%3D63%26clkid%3D7212456750467641702

mountainman70 · « **Reply #10 on:** March 24, 2012, 12:48:04 AM »

I have an old late flint? single barrel fowler,lock is perc converted from flint,right hand,no half cock,engraved"Richards" Lynchb'ug.Am in process of renovating this ol hoss with a newer 20ga barrel,new breechplug,and am really considering making flint with an oversize cut to fit flintlock from Ln R?Had to do a lot of wood repair,kinda like old cars,needn some tlc.Dave

T*O*F · « **Reply #11 on:** March 24, 2012, 01:27:57 AM »

Quote

Could it be a rebounding lock from a cartridge gun?

Yup, after looking at the pictures it is from a cartridge gun with a rebounding hammer (which is missing)

Hudnut · « **Reply #12 on:** March 24, 2012, 01:32:54 AM »

Quote from: Chris Treichel on March 24, 2012, 12:37:03 AM

Probably would help if I added the pictures... its this one......

Looks to be a pretty good quality lock, might be English, not Belgian. There were "Richards" who made guns. In addition to Westley, there was a William. That lock isn't a Westley.
Rebounding cartridge locks like this have been altered for use on percussion guns. The tip of the tumbler that hits the mainspring is removed, and the lock reworked to provide a halfcock. Lockplate can be reshaped.

Chris Treichel · « **Reply #13 on:** March 24, 2012, 02:51:48 AM »

Rebounding... very interesting. Will need to look that up.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #14 on:** March 24, 2012, 04:43:45 AM »

The single action or single lever set triggers are adjusted to bump the sear hard enough to fire the lock and then drop back to allow the lock to be cocked. The "safety" or half cock position on any lock is made to do one thing and that is to withstand the thrust of the mainspring when in that position. ANY of them can be defeated by a hard pull on the trigger or an abrupt strike of a fast set trigger.On a caplock,this half cock will aid in loading by allowing the column of air being compressed by the patched ball or long bullet to force the powder charge up to the nipple.It is by no means a safety in the modern sense of the term and a sudden blow like a dropped gun can break the sear and the tumbler and fire the cap. A hammer resting on the cap isn't dangerous unless the gun is mishandled like happened to a man here that dragged his rifle up to a tree stand and the hammer caught,dropped and the gun fired and killed him. I have never heard of a gun going off on a properly handled gun with the hammer on the cap. No less respect should be given our guns just because they load from the muzzle than is given to any modern repeater because dead is dead be it from a ball or a jacketed bullet.We don't need that kind of publicity.

Bob Roller

Dphariss · « **Reply #15 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:29:34 PM »

Quote from: Chris Treichel on March 24, 2012, 02:51:48 AM

Rebounding... very interesting. Will need to look that up.

Rebounding is useless, actually worse than useless on a percussion gun.

I converted a Shiloh to rebounding back when they had the tiny one piece firing pin to perhaps prevent breakage of the pin. With larger firing pins it can case primer flow into the breech.

Dan

Dphariss · « **Reply #16 on:** March 24, 2012, 08:31:30 PM »

A capped then uncapped nipple is more dangerous than a capped one.

HMM

Let me try this again.

A capped then uncapped nipple with the hammer resting on it is
more dangerous than a capped one with the hammer resting on it.
Need to start proofreading better.

Dan

westbj2 · « **Reply #17 on:** March 24, 2012, 11:17:21 PM »

Here is an alternative to a no 1/2 cock tumbler. The shaft of the small peg keeps the hammer nose up and off the cap/nipple. When drawn to full cock, the peg simply falls away.
Jim

stuart cee dub · « **Reply #18 on:** March 25, 2012, 01:31:05 PM »

If you are target shooting and capping on the line there really is no need for a half cock notch.
More so if you have set triggers which is basically another lock and which would not be set in any way during capping.Fingers out of the trigger guard until the sights are on target.

I don't even think I have sufficient clearance to sneak my capper under half cocked hammer on my target rifle.
Lots of quality built percussion target rifles were made this way in the 19th century .
They must have either primed on the line as well.Or so we might hope.
I have seen the hammer blocking peg set up on old guns as Jim has shown .It also provides a visual clue like a chamber flag .

I wonder what the old rules were like at some of the old time matches.Did they have a range safety officer?

.Probably not.

Half cock is really important for a flintlock to make the cock (relatively) safe during the priming sequence
And to have it in a primed ready state while hunting.Maybe the heresy of no half cock is greater from a flinters perspective.
Regards Stuart

bob in the woods · « **Reply #19 on:** March 25, 2012, 07:19:53 PM »

Couldn't you just cut and file in a 1/2 cock notch on the tumbler ?

Dphariss · « **Reply #20 on:** March 25, 2012, 07:39:18 PM »

Quote from: bob in the woods on March 25, 2012, 07:19:53 PM

Couldn't you just cut and file in a 1/2 cock notch on the tumbler ?

Its more complex than this and depends on the tumbler contour.
Probably yes.
But then it needs to be hardened.

Dan

Chris Treichel · « **Reply #21 on:** March 25, 2012, 09:16:03 PM »

Looks like I will get to take a closer look at it. Got it for $14 so even if it only joins the rest of my lock collection it will be something to study. Or maybe I will make some new parts without the rebounding feature. I like the looks of the lock plate.

Bob Roller · « **Reply #22 on:** March 25, 2012, 10:26:14 PM »

On a new lock,the tumbler must be shaped with a half cock in mind and adding one can be a real pain. A new sear with a more radical curvature where it engages the tumbler would be easier to make but then if the tumbler is hard another group of problems arises, If set triggers are to be used,then a "fly"or intercepting cam must be incorporated as well.
It can be more of a study in progessive degeneration of a lock than a useful alteration.

Bob Roller

Chris Treichel · « **Reply #23 on:** March 26, 2012, 04:22:33 PM »

I suppose I will wait and see what arrives...

FRJ · « **Reply #24 on:** March 26, 2012, 08:56:47 PM »

What Bob Roller said. FRJ

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Author Topic: Percussion Lock With No Half Cock (Read 11452 times)

squire

westbj2

FRJ