Author Topic: Where did all the horns come from?  (Read 23958 times)

Offline T*O*F

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Where did all the horns come from?
« on: March 25, 2012, 09:13:08 PM »
Many items were made from horn from the earliest days; spoons, forks, decorations, containers, knife and sword scales, powder horns, etc.  The militaries of the world used them for powder, and powder was also shipped pre-packaged into horns.  As small as the world was back then, this amounts to a tremendous amount of horns.  Yet, I have never read anything about any large scale beef operations and I don't think that cattle were polled back then.

Where did they all come from, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries?
Dave Kanger

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Offline flintriflesmith

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2012, 09:50:17 PM »
In the last half of the 18th century there were large cattle drives (from western NC, SC and VA) up the Great Wagon Road all the way to Philly. Lots of salt beef was exported from there or sold to the shipping industry as a shipboard food source. The horn was also exported both across to Europe and what was called "coastwise" to Boston and New York.

The cattle were not from large beef raising operations. They were collected from small farms and many of them were actually free range cattle. Instead of being branded as they were in later years these were marked by patterns clipped in their ears. The marks were registered in the county courts.

The cattle drive assembly areas were called cow pens and that were Cowpens SC -- were the Rev War battle was fought -- got its name.

Gary
P.S. T*O*F,
I am very interested in your mention of powder being shipped pre-packaged in horns. Can you point me to the documentation for that?
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2012, 10:35:34 PM »
Quote
I am very interested in your mention of powder being shipped pre-packaged in horns. Can you point me to the documentation for that?
Gary,
Sadly, I cannot as I don't keep written notes like many.  I can only recall that it was during the time of the British where quantities of horns were shipped from England pre-packaged and were issued directly to the militia and perhaps Indian allies, rather than divvying it out from kegs.  It made sense at the time as quantities of powder containers might have been scarce amongst these at that early date.  Regular military would have no need of them since they carried cartridge boxes.

Sadly, with the advent of the WWW, many good resources were lost in the conversion.  You used to be able to get directly into the archives of many colleges and read their holdings direct.  Now you can only read what they choose to publish on their websites.
Dave Kanger

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Offline James

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2012, 11:07:07 PM »
With the ox being the main source of traction and the triple purpose bovine breed the norm, quite a number of would have been walking around the northeast as well. Ox hurt its foot and couldn't pull, pair of horns. Cow got sick after calving or quit giving milk due to old age (over 12 years old it could be anytime), pair of horns. Some of the tax records I have read for gunsmiths in KRA articles show ownership of more than just a cow or two. Raising up calves for butcher for the years meat would provide a couple more. Not saying you fellows are wrong, you aren't, just adding this, due to the agrarian majority of that time there were a good number of horns collected locally in the NE and southern colonies/states.
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #4 on: March 26, 2012, 12:40:52 AM »
In the last half of the 18th century there were large cattle drives (from western NC, SC and VA) up the Great Wagon Road all the way to Philly. Lots of salt beef was exported from there or sold to the shipping industry as a shipboard food source. The horn was also exported both across to Europe and what was called "coastwise" to Boston and New York.

Gary

Would you like to elaborate on these "large" cattle drives?  How large is large?  During some periods of time during the last half of the 18th century and the first part of the 19th century the Pennsylvania horn factories were producing thousands of powder horns.  One shop contracted with the government to provide 10,000 to 12,000 finished powder horns. That is just one horn factory and there were several horn factories in Pennsylvania.  There were also a multitude of horn shops that made a business of making combs, cups, tumblers, horn books, and all the other items made from horn.  Seems like these cattle drives would have had to have been as large and as many as the huge cattle drives during later years in the west to provide the number of horns needed right on this continent.

How many horns were exported to Europe? It just doesn't seem that there would have been enough horns left to ship to Europe?  The great multitude of cattle found in the 13 colonies were imported from England and Europe so there had to be plenty of horned cattle in England and Europe so it just doesn't seem likely to me that great amounts of horns would have been exported to England and Europe.

It seems to me that it was likely the other way around.  Checking merchant advertisements in the different newspapers of the time show that many merchants were advertising powder horns and other horn products newly imported and for sale in their establishments.  I wouldn't think that somebody in England/Europe could buy horns imported from this continent, work them into powder horns and other horn products, sell them in England and Europe to American merchant's  representatives, have them transported back across the ocean and expect these products to compete, money wise, with the powder horns and horn products made in this country.  If I remember correctly the Pennsylvania horn factory that had the large contract with the government was receiving 50 cents, or less, per powder horn.

During the Revolutionary War, when imports from England were nonexistent, There appears to have been a shortage of powder horns available to the American colonial forces.  In his papers, George Washington sent several letters bemoaning the fact that he was not being supplied with enough powder horns to supply his armies. He kept asking his commissary officers to purchase and ship more powder horns. Washington wrote to his commissary officers several  times about the shortage and even ordered them to save all horns from cattle that was procured and butchered for beef for the army and send the horns to the army so they could be made into powder horns.

I realize that all of Washington's supply problems were not because of a lack of available supplies, but rather because of other reasons like some suppliers not supporting the revolution, not accepting the type of payment offered, profiteering making supplies to expensive, etc.  We may never know why Washington could not procure enough powder horns, but a lack of supply of raw horns would explain a lot.

Randy Hedden   




     
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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #5 on: March 26, 2012, 12:46:08 AM »
With the ox being the main source of traction and the triple purpose bovine breed the norm, quite a number of would have been walking around the northeast as well. Ox hurt its foot and couldn't pull, pair of horns. Cow got sick after calving or quit giving milk due to old age (over 12 years old it could be anytime), pair of horns. Some of the tax records I have read for gunsmiths in KRA articles show ownership of more than just a cow or two. Raising up calves for butcher for the years meat would provide a couple more. Not saying you fellows are wrong, you aren't, just adding this, due to the agrarian majority of that time there were a good number of horns collected locally in the NE and southern colonies/states.

James,

I hate to say it, but even though the colonies were 90% agrarian,  the amount of horns available from local farmers would not begin to supply the raw horn needs of the American colonies.  Most of the horns you mention were probably used right on the farms and the ones not used probably rotted hanging from a peg in the barn.

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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2012, 02:08:25 AM »
Dave has asked an interesting question.  Going right along with that question is where did all the leather come from.  There was an immense need for leather in the colonies.  For every horn shop or horn factory in the colonies there had to be at least one cordwainer"s  shop, one harness shop and one shoemaker's shop.  It is only a guess, but I suspect there would have been more than one of each of these shops for every horn shop.

During the 18th century the most common breed of cattle in the American colonies was the English Devon Red.  This breed is the "triple purpose" cattle breed that James talked about above.  Devon reds were beasts of burden, producers of milk, pulled wagons and plows and thrived on forage while requiring little feed to be supplied by the farmer.  What they weren't raised for was meat, horns, and leather.  If one did die or had to be put down the farmer would most likely use the meat, hide and horns for himself and his family.  I suppose that if you had a couple of extra yearlings, especially bulls, they might have been sent north with the large 18th century cattle drives, but that was not the main purpose of having and raising the Devon reds.

I am a maker and student of 18th century powder horns.  Especially the large double twist/curve powder horns made during the French & Indian War and up past the Revolutionary War.  The Golden Age of engraved powder horns.  I have been privileged to inspect and handle many of these types of horns.  When I look at the large double curve horns I don't see ox horns or Devon red horns, I see Texas longhorn cattle horns.  The Texas longhorn was not a breed of cattle that existed during the 18th century, but their ancestor, the Spanish Corriente  or Criollo breed existed and was brought to the North American continent and to almost all other Spanish colonies in the 15th and 16th centuries. The horns on the Corriente look like Texas longhorn cattle horns.  Large horns with the double curve or twist.  Large herds of these cattle existed in Mexico, California, Florida, and what would become Texas, not to mention all the Spanish island colonies like Cuba, Puerto Rico and others.

William Guthman, who wrote a well respected book about French & Indian War engraved powder horns indicated that, tons of leather hides from Spanish Corriente cattle were purchased and imported into the American colonies. As there is not much value in raw horns, the horns from the cattle that supplied the cow hides were shipped along with the hides for little or nothing.

If Guthman is correct that explains why I see Texas Longhorn steer horns beneath the engraving of all those 18th century horns.  This might also answer Dave's original question about "Where did all the horns come from?"

Randy Hedden
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 02:13:34 AM by Randy Hedden »
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Offline James

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2012, 03:16:46 AM »


During the 18th century the most common breed of cattle in the American colonies was the English Devon Red.  This breed is the "triple purpose" cattle breed that James talked about above.  Devon reds were beasts of burden, producers of milk, pulled wagons and plows and thrived on forage while requiring little feed to be supplied by the farmer.  What they weren't raised for was meat, horns, and leather.  If one did die or had to be put down the farmer would most likely use the meat, hide and horns for himself and his family.  I suppose that if you had a couple of extra yearlings, especially bulls, they might have been sent north with the large 18th century cattle drives, but that was not the main purpose of having and raising the Devon reds.



Randy Hedden


The cattle I keep now are known as Milking Devons, they are red and horned, I am told they are descended from cattle brought over in the late 1620s. They were in fact used and intentionally raised for their triple purpose qualities, i.e. males were trained as oxen or raised with the intent to butcher, the females raised to provide milk. Excess beyond that would have been sold,  many were in fact being raised to enter the meat trade, a byproduct would have been horns. They weren't just eating the worn out cow or ox, one of the intended exports from a farm with cattle is excess cattle. I have no letters to provide credence to my opinion and it is just that, opinion. My people have always kept cattle, and I assure you that after say 10 years, the farmer would pretty much have his own horn needs met just from his annual butchering and attrition. I think there were more horns floating off the farm than we are giving credit to. Florida certainly had cattle, but there were a great many on farms in the colonies. I won't be digging through records to come up with a total # though  :)
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Offline T*O*F

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2012, 03:32:12 AM »
Quote
This might also answer Dave's original question about "Where did all the horns come from?"
Randy,
When the question popped into my head, I was thinking more of Europe than the early colonies which were still fairly wild and unpopulated.  Who supplied Europe with their horn.  Again, there was no large scale cattle business there.  It occurred to me that perhaps they were imported from Spain and Portugal where both countries were in the "business" of cattle.  I don't know how early that Spain had enough viable herds  in North America to support hide and horn exports.

As for Washington's shortage of horns,  we had no navy at the time and the British were commandeering our ships and impressing the sailors on them.  We received no exports from them.  France was our ally, but Spain didn't want the Mississippi opened at both ends because it left their lands on the west bank vulnerable and they didn't have a large enough army to protect that border.  Thus, we got no exports from them either.  We were pretty much dependent on what little France could supply us with at the time and local production.
Dave Kanger

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Offline Randy Hedden

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2012, 04:54:19 AM »
Quote
This might also answer Dave's original question about "Where did all the horns come from?"
As for Washington's shortage of horns,  we had no navy at the time and the British were commandeering our ships and impressing the sailors on them.  We received no exports from them.  France was our ally, but Spain didn't want the Mississippi opened at both ends because it left their lands on the west bank vulnerable and they didn't have a large enough army to protect that border.  Thus, we got no exports from them either.  We were pretty much dependent on what little France could supply us with at the time and local production.


Dave,

I only brought up Washington's shortage of powder horns during the Revolutionary War to point out a time when there was an apparent shortage of horns during the colonial period.  Even before the Revolutionary War Mother England demanded, by law, that the colonies only purchase goods from England and only sell raw materials and goods to England.  The American colonies were not even supposed to make any finished products that were also made in England.  This law was frequently violated by ships leaving and entering seaports on the Atlantic seaboard with illicit goods.  American ships of the colonial times traveled far and wide, even as far as China, to sell, trade and buy goods.  This was a very lucrative market for those who owned ships and dared violate English law.  Two of the goods brought into the colonies in the largest quantities were tea and opium from China.  Both tea and opium were brought in by the tons.  It sure doesn't seem that bringing in cattle hides and horns from any of the easily reached Spanish colonies would be out of the question, does it. 

To many times we look at the laws mandated by countries and think that was the last word on the subject. but individual merchants, even Spanish colonial merchants, were eager to sell or trade for commodities that were not available in their own colonies.

Randy Hedden
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2012, 05:19:42 AM »
Spanish America, from its inception raised cattle on huge ranches for meat and hides. A large part of that production was traded into the English colonies and later the states. San Diego County is an example of this type of agriculture from 1769 on. It is a county larger than many eastern states and it was divided up into fewer than 30 ranches overall. Commodities from the ranches wherever they happened to be were shipped to Mexico City and then northward from the east coast of Mexico.
As has been mentioned, the hides were used for many things including shoes and boots. The horns seem to have been thrown into the ships as part of the deal, or for pennies. The cattle raised were what we call the 'longhorn' today and as you know, these animals had large horns of a caramel color. The Spaniards brought the breed from Spain though it apparently originated in Africa.
Dick

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2012, 06:14:50 AM »
Today, to keep a milk cow fresh, she needs to calve every year or so...the calves are often raised as steers or hieffers intended for the table in about 18 months...we never ate the milk cow. She was an Airshyre, a breed that grew some nice double curved horns too.

Something I think Ive noticed is that grain fed cattle have much better horns to work than range fed. Rangy stock like longhorn tends to be all ridged inside and thick...same for old range buffalo horns when compared to the new feed lot buff horns.

I may be wrong, but I think where ever the old horns came from, the cattle that grew them tended to be well fed domestic stuff.
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Offline James

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #12 on: March 26, 2012, 01:18:18 PM »

Something I think Ive noticed is that grain fed cattle have much better horns to work than range fed. Rangy stock like longhorn tends to be all ridged inside and thick...same for old range buffalo horns when compared to the new feed lot buff horns.

I may be wrong, but I think where ever the old horns came from, the cattle that grew them tended to be well fed domestic stuff.
tc 

 


The horn, because it is always growing, reflects consistency of good nutrition and periods of dearth or illness. Grain was not as easy to produce before the reaper and corn binder, so was not fed as is seen today, but constant access to good grazing and water will allow for the growth of quite nice horns.
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caliber45

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #13 on: March 26, 2012, 03:10:59 PM »
Gents -- Probably not germaine to this discussion, but the tribal group Tohono O'odham ("Desert People") in western Pima County, AZ, raise cattle with nice horns -- probably descendants of the padres who worked with them in the 1600s-1700s. Because of the "iffy" aspect of the so-called "annual" rainy season (July-September), there are periodically die-offs on the reservation, and I've seen many beautiful horns littering areas surrounding the charcos or water holes. Might be a source worth investigating? -- paulallen

Offline rich pierce

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #14 on: March 26, 2012, 04:50:32 PM »
Gents, look at the original F&I War and Revolutionary War horns.  They are not 3' long longhorns.  I have never figured out how to use a longhorn for a powder horn.  Also to generalize is probably a over-simplification.  Did Joe Farmer in Massachusetts Bay Colony go buy a raw imported horn down at the store?  I do not see raw horns on many trade lists.  He probably got his horn, good for 20 years of use, when they butchered a steer, or when the neighbor butchered a steer.  Now when the Revolutionary War erupted and Joe City from Boston joined the ranks, he needed an issued horn and that may be a different story.
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Offline mr. no gold

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2012, 05:25:14 PM »
Then, where did all of the Indians get their powder horns? They weren't known for raising cattle; gardening yes, but little to no animal husbandry. The Indian population outnumbered the whites for some time and they had guns, too. The 'long horn' produces horns of varying lengths and quality, and the ones we see today are show pieces that have been groomed and selected for large horns. The Spaniards didn't want the horns as they were simply by products of the meat/hide/tallow industry.Their cattle were wholly free range animals and the ones loose in Texas became the genesis of the first cattle drives and the ranching industry in Texas.
Good topic here.
Dick


Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2012, 06:45:55 PM »
Neat article about cattle hunters in the 18th century in South Carolina... http://www.lowcountryafricana.com/cow-hunters-of-colonial-south-carolina/

That article leads you to the bibliography which includeds several books about cattle in South Carolina in Colonial Times.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 06:48:04 PM by Chris Treichel »

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2012, 08:48:27 PM »
Horners were guilded in England and Europe...
did they allow a huge export of raw horns to America in the 18th cnetury?
I thought they did, but could be wrong especially since they didnt like us to compete with them for business...if they did send us boat loads of raw horns,
that would get some raw horn to makers shops on the eastern seaboard but not necessairly to the interior or frontier.

Could our domestic beef production have met the nations entire need for raw horn? Again, I dont know, but wasnt beef a rare thing on the frontier? I suppose country folk had access to horns eventually, Boone saw a good one in his friends feed lot back east, his friend had the beast butchered and gave Daniel the horn.

This is an interesting topic for sure.
tc
« Last Edit: March 26, 2012, 08:49:30 PM by T.C.Albert »
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Offline rich pierce

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« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 01:10:56 AM by rich pierce »
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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2012, 04:02:33 AM »
All too often we get, quite naturally, an american-centric view of history.  Bear in mind that France and England in the 17th and 18th centuries were international world-ranging powers, as was Spain and to a lesser extent the Dutch.  The war we call the French and Indian Wars were the "local" phase of a half century of conflict that has been called the "First World War"  The navies and armies of France and England consumed huge amounts of preserved meat, leather, and horn too, in many ways.  They drew on a world wide supply of cattle from many colonies on various continents to meet their needs.  Hides, horns, and meat were militarily strategic commodities,  although cartridge/cartouche boxes were much more common than powder horns in 'regular" armies

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #21 on: March 27, 2012, 04:56:06 PM »
In England, at butchering I think the horns were generally left on the hide...
they became the tanners to deal with and sell to the horners or maybe to sell to horn merchants that were sending them to America?

Moravian  centers like Salem did operate tanneries...both red and white...if butchers here sent the horns with the hides, then the red tannery should have been an outlet for horns? Does anyone know about a horner located there at Salem? 
tc
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Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #22 on: March 27, 2012, 05:23:17 PM »
Bethlem... If this site is correct... 6,000 hides processed per year during the revolutionary War Years... thats probably 12,000 available horns... http://www-ma.beth.k12.pa.us/jhoke/histbethlehem/tann.htm
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 05:25:16 PM by Chris Treichel »

Offline Chris Treichel

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #23 on: March 27, 2012, 05:29:32 PM »
Inventory of the Bethlehem Tannery by none other than Friedrich Willhelm Marshall 1762. http://bdhp.moravian.edu/community_records/business/inventories/tannery/tannery1.html

wow, there are a lot of interesting documents here... http://bdhp.moravian.edu/site_index/site_index.html
« Last Edit: March 27, 2012, 05:37:00 PM by Chris Treichel »

Offline T.C.Albert

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Re: Where did all the horns come from?
« Reply #24 on: March 27, 2012, 06:16:39 PM »
Great links...very interesting...after looking through the occupations lists of the brethern...I see they had a "beer carrier to the workers" guy, but no horners.
tc
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