Where did all the horns come from?

[Chris Treichel]

Maybe making horns here in the colonies was something you just did on cold winter days... so common that it wasn't worth mentioning. Anyone found any gunsmiths tax records showing bags and horns as part of the inventory?

[T.C.Albert]

Bigger shops and gunsmiths in the 19th century would list horns, bags, knives and all manner of sporting equipment on their shop cards and advertisements...but what was available at Albrights shop in Bethlehem
during the mid 18th century I dint know...

Horners were a recognized trade...New Salem in Illinois had one, but that was the early 1800s...I'm wondering if like you say, in the hinterlands if you wanted a horn you made it or took a trip to where they sold them back east...while the big horn shops, those that filled the military orders for thousands of horns like Randy mentioned earlier were in the bigger eastern urban centers...

I am surprised that the Moravians didn't have a horner though...they were very progressive with the other trades, cutting edge you could say with pottery technique etc...if the horner trade was common and established, Id have expected them to be involved...

Great topic ...
tc

[Chuck Burrows]

re: longhorns - this is in fact a New World breed developed in Texas, albeit descended from Spanish stock ie the Corrientes, which seldom develop huge horns (the early California cattle descended from the same basic stock as teh Longhorns but aren't longhorns . The Longhorns generally don't develop the extra long horns until later in life - young ones have more appropriate sized horns for use as powder horns - my neighbors at the Santa Rita ranch raise them and I've gotten a couple of sets from the young ones they butcher. The corrientes are also the base stock of the Spanish cattle in Florida and Georgia.

Here are some links:
A History of Spanish Colonial Cattle
dialnet.unirioja.es/servlet/fichero_articulo?codigo=278744

Corriente cattle
http://purecorriente.com/_wsn/page3.html

A couple of young longhorn images:
http://www.shutterstock.com/pic-76687375/stock-photo-texas-longhorn-cattle-in-a-field-of-green-in-the-umpqua-valley-near-roseburg-oregon.html

http://www.happyhillfarm.org/academy/agriculture/animal-agriculture/

[The other DWS]

"I am very interested in your mention of powder being shipped pre-packaged in horns. Can you point me to the documentation for that?"

That intrigues me as well, and I'd love to know more about it.
  I spent a lot time studying the northern fur trade documents for the time from the French exploration until the War of 1812.  much of it on trade goods lists for both the French/Anglo/ Metis and NA markets.  I don't recall any references to powder horns, filled or otherwise,  dosen;t mean there weren't any---just that they haven't stuck in my memory.  Yet many of the published "private journal sketches",  Rindesbacher (sp?) drawings, etc show the NA and metis using powder horns.  I've assumed it was pretty common and under the radar of most commentators of the era.  After all horn was pretty much the plastic of the era.  "Beeves" were pretty common in most frontier military installations, civilian communities, and trading posts: and while there was a need in the east for quasi-industrial scale horn work, I believe it was also very much a cottage industry nearer the cutting edge of the frontier

[Randy Hedden]

Gents, look at the original F&I War and Revolutionary War horns.  They are not 3' long longhorns.  I have never figured out how to use a longhorn for a powder horn. 

Rich,

All the F&I horns I make are made from longhorn steer horns.  I order them in "medium length" which run 18 to 22 inches in length.  Medium length steer horns make into a very nice 15 to 16 inch long F&I powder horn.

Randy Hedden   

[mr. no gold]

Chuck-Are you referring to Sponenberg and Olson in "Colonial Spanish Cattle in the United States..." in your citations? They give a lot of history, but do not name the root stock other than to call them Iberian animals brought here. I have heard the name corriente applied to the breed too, but wonder if it isn't a much later designation? S&B note that native cattle originated from approximately 300 head brought to the new world into the Indies. In 1565 Pedro Melendez took a number of animals into Florida where they quickly expanded their numbers and these became the ancestor herd of the Southeast cattle.
S&O are scientists and have tracked the cow in America from the start and even know where the purer strains of the old breeds are today. They note that the California strain became extinguished by the end of the gold rush out here, although one sees Texas longhorns on ranches from time to time.
Dick   

[TPH]

If Washington was concerned about a lack of horns, what was the purpose that the horns were to be put to?  Riflemen and some militia used horns, it's true, but the need was relatively small for Washington's Continental Army.  Why? Because the average infantryman used a cartridge box with pre-rolled cartridges and this also included many militia, not just Regulars. Consider that loading from a horn under fire was slow and difficult if not downright impossible when firing in ranks.  There must have been another need for horn that we are missing?

[rich pierce]

Gents, look at the original F&I War and Revolutionary War horns.  They are not 3' long longhorns.  I have never figured out how to use a longhorn for a powder horn. 

Rich,

All the F&I horns I make are made from longhorn steer horns.  I order them in "medium length" which run 18 to 22 inches in length.  Medium length steer horns make into a very nice 15 to 16 inch long F&I powder horn.

Randy Hedden   

Man, I really learned something today about horns!  Love those corriente cattle pictures from LaBonte too- I was thinking "Texas longhorn" but now see the type of cattle used in bullfighting in Spain and etc as likely sources for horns o plenty.

[mr. no gold]

My guess about the reliance on the powder horn during the Rev. War is that it carried priming powder of a finer grade than that used for discharging the arm. The militia using their own arms would have needed  horn(s) of powder to fire their rifles. Not too many KY Rifles then using paper cartridges. I would imagine.
Dick

[T.C.Albert]

dont forget Florida and the West Indies...
http://www.floridamemory.com/photographiccollection/photo_exhibits/ranching/
tc 

[Chuck Burrows]

Chuck-Are you referring to Sponenberg and Olson in "Colonial Spanish Cattle in the United States..." in your citations? They give a lot of history, but do not name the root stock other than to call them Iberian animals brought here. I have heard the name corriente applied to the breed too, but wonder if it isn't a much later designation? Dick   

I haven't actually read that article in a while, but yes it refers to S & O's works. As for corriente - I'd agree that it's a later appellation - the link I posted above re: the corrientes goes into some depth on the early Spanish breeds - all apparently Euro breeds without cross breeding from the North African/Moorish breeds - the Moors had a very large influence on most Spanish culture from 711-1492, but apparently not on their cattle.

[Luke MacGillie]

A List of Goods on hand for the Indian Department, Detroit, 5 September, 1778.

 
     30         Boxes Ball, bar lead & Shot.         40         Gro. Indian gartering, assorted.    
     300         lbs Pewter Bassins.         20         Gro. bed lace,            ditto.    
     500         lb Vermillion.         400         yards tincel Lace.    
     150         doz scalping knives.         24         doz. com. horn Combs.    
     100         doz paper Looking glasses.         12         doz. Ivory         ditto.    
     50         Pieces striped Callimancoes.         20         lbs coloured thread.    
     134         Pieces linnens, different qualities.         10         lbs white      ditto.    
     12         Pieces 5-4 Striped cottons.         6         M. com. Needles.    
     72         yellow & white lencil laced Hats.         60         pieces Indian Ribbond.    
     72         plain felt    ditto.         2         Boxes pipes, 32 gro.    
     700         lbs Brass Kettles.         100         N. West Fuzells.    
     200         lbs Copper camp do.         6         Cutteau de chasse with Belts comp'l.
     40         lbs brass Wire.         4         Pairs Pistols.    
     350         lbs Indian Beads.         6         fine fowling pieces, long.    
     560         yards Oranaburgs.         2,000         com. 2 1/2 point Blankets.    
     20         doz black silk Handkfs.         300         fine 2 1/2 point   ditto.    
     150         fine 3 point Blankets         4         pieces fine black stroud.    
     100         com. 3 point ditto.         6         pieces brown, blue & green Batteen.    
     200
200         com. 2 point ditto.
com. 1 1/2 point ditto.         1,400
600         fine,
coarse    
     200         com. 1 point ditto.         37         Bars Swedes Iron.    
     60         pieces blue strouds.         2         Fagots steel.    
     4         pieces crimson & scarlet strouds.         1,600         Gallons West India Rum.    
     4         pieces scarlet cloth.         5         pieces Muzlins.    
     2         pieces fine blue strouds.         30         pieces Callicoe.    
     4         pieces blue & light coating, fine.         12         Saddles.    
     2         pieces white flannell.         6           ditto   with shag seats.    
     6         pieces white penistone.         6         fine blue housing with fringe.    
     10         pieces blue  ditto.         6         saddle cloths.    
     9         pieces brown ditto.         6         doz. snafel Bridles.    
     20         pieces emboss'd serge.         3         doz. d'ble reign'd curb ditto.    
     4         pieces plain swanskin.         24         Gro. Morris bells.    
     4         pieces spotted ditto.         2         Gro. fire steels.    
     2         doz Gun Sacks.         2         Gro. Gun worms.    
     2         doz finer ditto.         20         Gro finger Rings.    
     24         doz Steel spurs.         36         doz. clasp Knives.    
     1         Gro. brass Thimbles.         16         doz Toy  ditto, enambled.    
     2         doz Paper snuff boxes.         5         doz raizors.    
     2         doz steel ditto, spring Tobacco boxes.    40         Tin Kettles.    
     2         Gro. Indian Auls.         6         M English Gun Flints.    

 

EXCLUSIVE OF THE ABOVE NOW IN STORE.
     2,000         lbs of Powder.         120         Canotts of Tobacco,    
     35         p's of stroud.         1,900         lbs of Shott, Ball & Bar lead.    
     150         Fusees.         50         Axes & Tomahawks.    
     77    1/2    pr of 11 pt Blankets.         50         Hoes.    
     31         pr. of 1 pt  do         24         Copper Kettles.    
     8         pr. of 11 pt do         6         Saddles.    
     71         pr. of 1 pt  do         36         Bridles.    
     8         pieces of striped cotton.         10         Gross of knives of sorts.    
     8         doz of Callimanco Bed Gowns.         50         Capots.    
     6         p's of Callimanco.         100         Gallons of Rum.    
     200         Shirts.         50         lbs of Vermillion.    
     80         lbs of Rose pink.         20         pieces of Callico.    

And many small articles such as Gun Screws, Flints, Combs, looking Glasses, thread, awls, thimbles, Ringes, Crosses, Coat Buttons, Powder Horns, one piece of scarlet cloth & £350 worth of Silver works.- N. Y. currency.
HENRY HAMILTON,    
Lieut.-Gov'r & Superintend't.    

Endorsed:- List of Indian Goods remaining at Detroit the 5 Sep'r, 1778.

[Luke MacGillie]

Orderly Book of the 2d Virginia Regiment, 1775:  NOTE:  Shot pouches were being made of cloth, not leather in this instance....

The Quartermasters Sergeant and Camp Colour men are to Collect all the Horns fit for Powder and Each
Soldier is to Mark his own Powder horn, with all the Possible Expedition

College Camp October 13th. 75
Parole Augusta

The Captains and Subalterns are to Stay in Camp and Give their whole Attention to fixing up the Good Muskets with flints &c. And Seeing each man provided with Ten Charges of Powder & Lead Equivalent Shot Pouches to be Instantly made and powder horns to be provided without Loss of Time & Both dealt
out to the men who have Muskets fit for Action, muskets that want Repairs must be Selected & sent to the smiths,by them to be Repaired under the Eye of a Captain or Skilful Subaltern who [is] Derected to be very
Careful the Repair are Sufficient-

Colledge Camp October the 15th. 1775
Payrole Williamsburg
The Captains in the there Respective Companys are to fix up the Powder horns & Shot Bags. When both are finished & See that proper Betts & Stoppers are Provided, where Shot Bags only are Ready they must be Fixed with Bolts& 6: Cartridges of Powder and also Six Bullets Deposited in Each Bag, & Dilivered to the Soldiers Respectively.

The Guard at the Camp is to be Augmented by an addition of Ten Privates & a Corporal & Three more Centrys to be Stationed at proper Places the whole Guard to be under the Command of a Subaltern-The men are Again forbidden to Ease themselves, Except at the Necessary Holes, & those to be Covered once in two Days-Those that have Cartridge Boxes as well as Powder Horns & Shot Bags are to furnish their Boxes to those men, who have no horns & Bags for the present in order that all may have the means
of Defence

The men who have horns are to have them all filled with Powder and the Captains are to Examine the State of Each mans Powder at the Retreat Beating that this presious article may not be misapployed.
It is Expected that Eeach man to Day be furnished with powder and Ball Accordingt o his Accoutrimentss, o as Each may be found in Readiness to Act by the Evening of this Day. Officers are to be most punctually
Careful.
P Henry Junr

[The other DWS]

thanks Luke,  good material.

Another use for powder horns was in artillery, especially naval gunners who kept the fine priming powder for the flintlock igniters in horns because they were about as waterproof s anything available and the narrow tip of the horns made it easy to apply the powder to the pan without excess spillage

[T.C.Albert]

where Shot Bags only are Ready they must be Fixed with Bolts& 6: Cartridges of Powder and also Six Bullets Deposited in Each Bag, & Dilivered to the Soldiers Respectively.
what is Fixed with bolts?
TC

[G. Elsenbeck]

"My guess about the reliance on the powder horn during the Rev. War is that it carried priming powder of a finer grade than that used for discharging the arm."

As far as I know finer grade of powder in vast supply WAS NOT around during the Rev War.  I believe it was around 1840 that FFFg was being manufactured with FFFFg later as we entered the Civil War.  Up to those times all that was available was two types: either cannon fodder or 'all other (ffg). 

As for 'other' uses of horn?  Combs, containers of all sorts, grease horns for the wagons, feed scoops in the barn, spoons, etc.  Not all horns were used for just powder horns.  As for the Rev War I recall the written orders for the making of 7,000 (?) plus powder horns for the new Continental Army by the "little manufacturers" located in the States. 
Of course that was just one order and I'm sure we had a need for more than that. 

As far as Texas Longhorn horns available to the colonies in the 18th century, I don't think they were available............yet.   I'm with you Rich, they're lack of consistent nice curve in a size for to carry I've not yet found.  They are great today for rum horns or other type of containers, but powder horns, I'll pass.

[JCKelly]

One of the Horner guys told me, ca 1983, that in the 1950's Our Gov't FDA first permitted horns to be used as filler in hot dogs. Yummy. That was also about the time that fire, or fires, in Lancaster, Pennsylvania, horn shops reduced the production capacity for horn combs. Hospitals used horn combs because until about that time horn was the only "plastic" which they could sterilize.   

[Luke MacGillie]

"My guess about the reliance on the powder horn during the Rev. War is that it carried priming powder of a finer grade than that used for discharging the arm."

As far as I know finer grade of powder in vast supply WAS NOT around during the Rev War.  I believe it was around 1840 that FFFg was being manufactured with FFFFg later as we entered the Civil War.  Up to those times all that was available was two types: either cannon fodder or 'all other (ffg). 

As for 'other' uses of horn?  Combs, containers of all sorts, grease horns for the wagons, feed scoops in the barn, spoons, etc.  Not all horns were used for just powder horns.  As for the Rev War I recall the written orders for the making of 7,000 (?) plus powder horns for the new Continental Army by the "little manufacturers" located in the States. 
Of course that was just one order and I'm sure we had a need for more than that. 

As far as Texas Longhorn horns available to the colonies in the 18th century, I don't think they were available............yet.   I'm with you Rich, they're lack of consistent nice curve in a size for to carry I've not yet found.  They are great today for rum horns or other type of containers, but powder horns, I'll pass.

What information do you have to support using horns for priming powder?  That seems to be something from an old wives tale that has us beating the Brits because we wore coonskin caps while shooting rifles from behind trees while the Brits all wore red and stood in lines in open fields

What I can provide regarding the early war use of horns and special powder is this:  From JJ Henry,

Powder and ball, particularly the first, to us riflemen was of the first consequence. At Cainbridge the horns belonging to the men, were filled with an excellent rihe powder—which, when expended, could not be replaced in Canada by any powder of an equal quality. The men had got into a habit of throwing it away at every inning object. Upon our return from the Chaudiere, this circumstance raised disgust in us for we had been studiously careful of our ammunition, never firing but at some object which would give us the means of subsistence. Though we drew our loads every morning, from a fear of the dampness of the atmosphere, yet the ball and powder were never lost. Our bullet screws brought the first out with ease, and it was recast— the latter was carefully returned to the
horn, where, if moist, it soon became dry. P54

[Luke MacGillie]

Interesting article, not about what we are discussing here, but in the footnotes are lots of ads from colonial newspapers that have pistol powder for sale, it would be worth it to use the notes to look at the ads, and determine if there were more than just two types of powder for sale.....

http://www.impsec.org/~jhardin/gunstuff/writings/pistols-and-crime-in-early-america.pdf

[Chuck Burrows]

Fred - nice to know that someone else found that paper interesting besides myself..

[Luke MacGillie]

Fred - nice to know that someone else found that paper interesting besides myself..

It is, but its costing me money, getting an Accessible Archives subscription just to look at newspaper ads from 250 years ago, I wonder if the coupons are still good?

[Dphariss]

Many items were made from horn from the earliest days; spoons, forks, decorations, containers, knife and sword scales, powder horns, etc.  The militaries of the world used them for powder, and powder was also shipped pre-packaged into horns.  As small as the world was back then, this amounts to a tremendous amount of horns.  Yet, I have never read anything about any large scale beef operations and I don't think that cattle were polled back then.

Where did they all come from, especially in the 17th and 18th centuries?

Back in the day virtually all cows had horns (unlike the hornless breeds common today) and they obviously killed and ate a lot of them and the horns were used for various things.
The fact that there are all these surviving items made of horn confirms this.

Dan

[Chuck Burrows]

Fred - nice to know that someone else found that paper interesting besides myself..

It is, but its costing me money, getting an Accessible Archives subscription just to look at newspaper ads from 250 years ago, I wonder if the coupons are still good?

at least it's money well spent - all my "extra" cash these days is going for medical bills - $30K plus and they still haven't "fixed" the problem........     

and yep wouldn;t it be nice if those coupons were still valid.....BTW - you back in the states yet?

[Luke MacGillie]

Actually Ive been home for awhile, never updated my profile here.  But am heading out again in a couple weeks, and wont be back till early fall

[Chuck Burrows]

Good luck and keep your head down! We may not always I agree but I do appreciate your posts.....