"Masterpiece Gun"

[Robby]

I'm not sure Rich but the only web site back then would have been some dark corner where the arachnid's dwelt! Then as today, papers are easily forged, and any guild or union would also probably be plagued with nepotism, granting papers to some ne're-do-well reletive, but a masters piece would stand on its own. Even if ones masterpiece was stolen the word would get out pretty fast in that community.
Robby

[Jack Hubbard]

Eric...If its the folk carved folk art .12 guage you are talking about, I believe its in Ohio....A fellow that has Hawken kits had it....He bought it at Friendship several years back....Not sure if its the same one your talking about....

[Frenchy]

 As I remember it...In Germany you have to be an apprentice for a certain period of time. Then, pass written and physical tests to become a journeyman. To become a Master you have to learn business,and all aspects of the gun trade. Even ballistics.
Your "Masterpiece" is built in your spare time under supervision and being inspected every week or two. Then, you take a grueling written test and your "Masterpiece" is inspected by a committee.
As to this thread...beautiful.

[Mike Brooks]

As I remember it...In Germany you have to be an apprentice for a certain period of time. Then, pass written and physical tests to become a journeyman. To become a Master you have to learn business,and all aspects of the gun trade. Even ballistics.
Your "Masterpiece" is built in your spare time under supervision and being inspected every week or two. Then, you take a grueling written test and your "Masterpiece" is inspected by a committee.
As to this thread...beautiful.

I'm also not a member of a guild and there fore not an apprentice, journeyman or Master. I just build guns that people like to buy.

[nosrettap1958]

Well, the way I reckin it this here Masterpiece is one thing or another, but if that there rifle can put two holes in a 12 ounce beer can at 75 paces I figure its a "Masterpiece".

[westerner]

I really like that "masterpiece" rifle. I dont know a darn thing about ALRs "American flintlocks", but I do know quality when I see it.  What I really like is that it is new.  Not made to look like an old gun, "fake".  If I owned it I'd use it and maybe even shoot a deer with it.  It would get dented and tarnished and dirty. Mike brooks rifles are fantastic prop guns for a movie.  We need a new mountain man movie anyway.

        Joe. 

[Mike Brooks]

Mike brooks rifles are fantastic prop guns for a movie.

You better go have a talk with the owners of my guns, they are hardly props. They hold a few national records and are terrific killing machines in the field. Aged guns aren't for everybody,but they entertain me and at this point in my career that's what is most important.

[nosrettap1958]

Yes, we do need another mountain man movie, but more on the lines of Jeremiah Johnson and not the one that Charlton Heston did.   

[jimc2]

Mike if they don't understand now the never will. Your architecture stands alone without embellishment.Enough said

[Mike R]

I think the jist of this jest is that Masterpiece, however it is defined, is a term that should only be used by others for your work, if deserved.  Using it to describe your own work, no matter how good, smacks of hubris and boasting.   Look back to the old masters, many of whom wouldn't even sign their guns, how do you think they'd fall on this topic?

The point I tried to make was that the "masterpiece" in old guilds [and modern custom forged ABS knife society] was [is] just that--a judged piece to advance one from the Journeyman class--and as such could be referred to as the masterpiece.  It has little to do with ego or salesmanship--it is a descriptive term. Knife makers can and do refer to their masterpiece set of knives, even though they may go on to create even better works, the masterpieces are the original set.

[Bob Roller]

That was Robert Redford that did the "portrayal"of Jeremiah Johnson.

Bob Roller

[smshea]

You can add embellishment to anything, it  doesn't mean it has good architecture.


Sorry, couldn't help myself.

[nosrettap1958]

Charlton Heston was in a movie called the Mountain Man or Men that was really stupid, but Robert Redford played his part in in Jeremiah Johnson real well.  
We get it.  Mike is having a little fun at another 'Masterpiece' thread that was started and turned into an arguement that the moderator had to lock the thread.

[Eric Kettenburg]

An my opinion, which probably isn't worth much, is that it was a wrong decision to lock that other thread:  things were just beginning to loosen up.  There was no obscenity involved, and if argument alone is reason to lock a thread then we better lock more than half of them right now.  Anyone who didn't like it was not obligated to read it.

For this board, or ANY forum whether virtual or physical, to have ANY value, there has to be an uninhibited flow of ideas, debate and opinion.  The very first year I attended Dixon's, what seems like another life ago now, George Shumway screeched to halt in front of my table and proceeded to spend over an hour criticizing every single little fault on my rifles.  And there were a lot of them.  And, I'm @!*% glad he did, because if everyone was simply polite, how would I have known any better?  

I went home and ripped them all apart for parts and rebuilt everything.  The right way.

Thanks George, for not being a "gentleman."  And yes I'm being sarcastic in reference to the other thread.

[Mike Brooks]

An my opinion, which probably isn't worth much, is that it was a wrong decision to lock that other thread:  things were just beginning to loosen up.  There was no obscenity involved, and if argument alone is reason to lock a thread then we better lock more than half of them right now.  Anyone who didn't like it was not obligated to read it.

For this board, or ANY forum whether virtual or physical, to have ANY value, there has to be an uninhibited flow of ideas, debate and opinion.  the very first year I attended Dixon's, what seems like anther life ago now, George Shumway screeched to halt in front of my table and proceeded to spend over an hour criticizing every single little fault on my rifles.  And there were a lot of them.  And, I'm @!*% glad he did, because if everyone was simply polite, how would I have known any better? 

I went home and ripped them all apart for parts and rebuilt everything.  The right way.

Exactly, exchange of information is not arguing.I saw no argument on the other thread, just differing view points. With the responses to the other thread it's quite obvious there are lots of members here that need to learn what a good gun is and what isn't. Frankly I'm shocked at the lack of ability to see the difference since this is supposed to be the premier gunbuilding board on the net. More education on these types of things are desperately needed.

[rich pierce]

Moderators try to balance things.  We have a lot of polite folk on the forum who often ask that we shut something down when they feel it's going nowhere or is primarily deprecating or poking fun at someone rather than being about the longrifle.  The best way to keep threads active is to make observations or comments that delve into the longrifle specifically.  Fact is, if we get 5 messages a day asking us to shut something down, and that persists for a couple days, we're likely to lock it just to be able to breathe.   Now don't go start hating on folks with well developed senses of propriety!     I think we have to accept that none of us is going to have the forum work exactly as WE would like.  The goal is to keep it "working" in promoting the art and knowledge of the longrifle and it's associated crafts and accoutrements.  I'll repeat, the best way to keep a thread alive is to make insightful comments that provoke active discussion about the longrifle, not about Joe or Bob.

The moderators also wrestle with how to encourage critiques of folks' work.  I think it is best is folks posting their work say, "honest critiques would be appreciated".  I know some builders who value that, and others who are not ready for it yet.  There is a tendency for many to want to encourage and a lot of beginner work gets a lot of "attaboys" that are not particularly helpful.  If a gun or horn or bag, etc is posted and you could offer some good points, I suggest asking, even by PM if you are so inclined, "do you want a critique of your work?"

From watching and experiencing good critiques by folks who are terrific teachers (Chuck Dixon and Gary Brumfield come to mind) I try to praise what is praiseworthy in a rifle and then ask some leading questions about the areas that look to need improvement.  This is easier in person.  But let's enbcourage each other to post work open for critique and be willing to take it on the chin when that's appropriate.  But keeping it about the longrifle will always help keep the discussion productive.  Like "take a closer look at RCA 21.  See the fullness of the buttstock?  Seems like your early Reading rifle is leaned down quite a bit by comparison".

I'm just blabbing at this point and will go open a new topic in hopes of rescuing what could be great discussion.

[westerner]

Mike brooks rifles are fantastic prop guns for a movie.

You better go have a talk with the owners of my guns, they are hardly props. They hold a few national records and are terrific killing machines in the field. Aged guns aren't for everybody,but they entertain me and at this point in my career that's what is most important.

I should have said they would make fantastic prop guns.  
The mountain man movie with Heston was silly stupid but it was entertaining and my favorite MM movie. The guns they used looked like 70s Italian replicas, groan.
As far as ALR architecture, They all look perty much the same to me.  I dont have a clue.  


         Joe.

[Mike Brooks]

As far as ALR architecture, They all look perty much the same to me.  I dont have a clue.

Well then, there you go......
Stick around, you may learn something through all of this debate.

[nosrettap1958]

Definitely Joe, it was a little too silly but entertaining to say the least.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

An my opinion, which probably isn't worth much, is that it was a wrong decision to lock that other thread:  things were just beginning to loosen up.  There was no obscenity involved, and if argument alone is reason to lock a thread then we better lock more than half of them right now.  Anyone who didn't like it was not obligated to read it.

For this board, or ANY forum whether virtual or physical, to have ANY value, there has to be an uninhibited flow of ideas, debate and opinion.  The very first year I attended Dixon's, what seems like another life ago now, George Shumway screeched to halt in front of my table and proceeded to spend over an hour criticizing every single little fault on my rifles.  And there were a lot of them.  And, I'm @!*% glad he did, because if everyone was simply polite, how would I have known any better?  

I went home and ripped them all apart for parts and rebuilt everything.  The right way.

Thanks George, for not being a "gentleman."  And yes I'm being sarcastic in reference to the other thread.

Just to be clear Eric. I didn't lock the other thread because of arguing. I locked it because it kept focusing on people and personalities as opposed to guns and ways of judging or assessing them.  We can argue all day long as long as we listen, explain what leads us to our opinion etc and avoid calling names directly or indirectly. I was actually frustrated about closing it because there was a thread of value there..... but it kept circling back to personal attack.... with no resolution possible.  

And I agree wholeheartedly about the need for uninhibited flow of ideas, debate and opinion.

[Frenchy]

Mike Brooks,
You stated on the other thread that you could do a critique of the "rifle"...
As someone that has put together a couple of kits and stocked one long rifle from a blank, I would be very interested in your views.

[Mike Brooks]

I'm not entirely clear on what you mean?

[Eric Kettenburg]

I have no idea but Scott's post above gets the post of the year award.

[JDK]

Mike Brooks,
You stated on the other thread that you could do a critique of the "rifle"...
As someone that has put together a couple of kits and stocked one long rifle from a blank, I would be very interested in your views.

Just start a thread under "gun building" and post pictures of your work and ask for critiques.  You will get them.  Enjoy, J.D.

[JDK]

......or in other words "build it and they will come"........   J.D.