Author Topic: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal  (Read 16018 times)

Dave Faletti

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #25 on: April 02, 2012, 08:59:47 PM »
Daryl he isn't making larger calibers.   36  45  50  54  is what he makes.  I just asked him recently.

Daryl

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #26 on: April 02, 2012, 09:13:34 PM »
Thanks Dave - that's what I thought - just little stuff. 

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #27 on: April 02, 2012, 10:46:05 PM »
Daryl,
I don't know if Jim makes the two sizes you mentioned or not but if there is a decent demand,he probably would. On a one off basis it may be in doubt.

Bob Roller

Offline Don Getz

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #28 on: April 03, 2012, 02:23:21 AM »
It is not a simple thing to add another calibre to one's offering.   You would first have to buy a drill of the appropriate size,
then get a reamer made to take it up to the correct size for the calibre.   Next, you would have to make a rifling head and
cutters to put some rifling in the bore.   All of this can amount to more than a few bucks.....Don

Daryl

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #29 on: April 03, 2012, 05:28:14 PM »
Yes - of course - 'taking' the bit and offering larger sizes is a bit step to take in what might appear to be a shakey market. The larger sizes, however are needed for the muzzleloading hunters in Africa and that is where the largest demand is coming from.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2012, 06:09:12 AM »
Quote
Insert Quote
What is the material  these large bore,heavy powder load barrels are being made from?

Bob, If you are concerned about safety?--- It probably doesn't matter due to the fact they're shooting Black Powder.  12L14(the std. for BP barrels last I heard) has a yield strength of around 60K and 1144(Green Mountain is using this steel I believe) is up at 100K.  One might bulge a barrel with a double load or compromise it if the walls are too thin at the rear sight, underlug etc. but doubt a properly manufactured and unobstructed barrel will blow up with heavy charges of Black Powder,  It just doesn't burn fast enough to develope the kind of pressures needed.  I shoot a 62 cal 1 1/16 straight(36in-1/72-.010 flat bottom rifled) Sharon barrel made of 12L14 with 120 grains of 3f as my std. charge for deer hunting.  I have tried heavier loads but it blows the hammer back and I really don't gain that much in energy/velocity. I built this rifle in 1978(see pic).
Also FWIW---I have a 45 smokeless muzzleloader that shoots around 2700fps with a 200 grain saboted 40 bullet and it is only developing around 35000psi based on pressure traces---It is built with 4140 std. barrel steel however :)
[/img]

The yield strength of 12L14 is a totally meaningless number when its used as a gun barrel.
12L14 when used as a gun barrel is brittle. Brittle is what makes the numbers meaningless. The cold rolling that makes the material brittle also increases its yield number. But they do not test for yield when subjected to internal pressure and brittle steels fail shock tests. Gun barrels are shock loaded.
ALL cold rolled steels are brittle this is why they cold roll them. Brittle steels, in general, machine easier (if anyone wants a demonstration turn some cold rolled on a lathe then anneal it then make some more cuts. It will be more difficult to cut.  While its possible to anneal 12L14 and make it more ductile this does not get rid of the high levels of Lead and Sulfur and Phosphorus which cause inclusions and flaws in the steel. This make the steel even if annealed more failure prone than a similar alloy without these metals added.
THEN we have the fact that the stuff is a cheap steel with little care taken in its manufacture compared to a certified quality steel. So its has things like fissures and inclusions etc etc.
We have to ask why would someone make a gun barrel from a material that the a steel maker, decades ago, stated was unsuitable and specifically stated that it should not be used when
Wrought iron? GOOD wrought iron is less likely to fail than cold rolled steel. The Springfield Rifle Muskets ALL have skelp welded iron barrels. Some were converted to 58 Berdan breechloaders. They are still a reliable barrel when in good shape.  Wrought iron is a very TOUGH material. It has sufficient strength for a ML barrel using round balls or light charges and a bullet like a Minie (the Springfields were proved with 280 gr of Musket Powder and a Minie spaced 2" off the powder IIRC).
This begs the question of why the Gov't used iron when steel was available. However, control of the alloy was pretty crude and it might be that fluctuations in alloy might make iron a better choice.
Low quality iron, and lots of barrels were made of low quality iron in the first 1/2 of the 19th century and beyond, was far weaker due to high levels of inclusions.
Cold rolled works well for many things, but its not good for tubes bearing internal pressure and shock loading.
Claims that the barrels never fail are simply false. Failures of 12L14 barrels, I am told, is why Douglas stopped making ML barrels. I know there were failures and I know they stopped making ML barrels. Douglas is not the only maker who have had barrel failures. Buts its something nobody wants to address.

Dan
He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Bob Roller

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2012, 02:15:52 PM »
Dan,
First,I am sorry to hear of your dad's passing. My father took off with another woman in 1941 and lived in Wisconsin until he passed in 1970.
I saw him in 1953 and again in 1964 so there was certainly no real connection there.
  Many thanks for the explanation on the 12L14.
I raised the question of large bore barrels and did not mention 12L14 and everyone jumped to the defense of its use.I do NOT know what barrel makers use beyond Jim McLemore and Ed Rayl and Green Mountain. I think one reason more ruptured barrels are not reported is the fact that a lot of the guns made by members of this forum are high art wall hangers and done as an artistic expression of skill and a lot of them are really good,far beyond anything I will ever do.
On the 12th of this month,I will have bladder surgery to get rid of a large diverticulum which is a hernia type that can conceal cancer and possible partial removal of the prostate. I will be out of the shop for a while,for as long as it takes to heal from this operation. Robtics will be used and we have a state of the art facility here but I will rely on God more  than the electrowidgets.
Thanks again for the feed back in the steel.

Bob Roller

Offline FL-Flintlock

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #32 on: April 04, 2012, 02:58:15 PM »
Wrought iron is a very TOUGH material.
Dan

Victims of the Titanic would disagree.
The answers you seek are found in the Word, not the world.

Offline Dphariss

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #33 on: April 04, 2012, 04:22:46 PM »
Wrought iron is a very TOUGH material.
Dan

Victims of the Titanic would disagree.

First the Titanic was not a gun barrel so the comment is irrelevant. Second it was not an iron ship so the comment is not relevant, other than to show that some alloys are brittle even when not used as gun barrels. Third there is evidence that the effected plates broke rather than bent. So I assume there was some unknown alloy problem that was not known or realized by the steel maker or the ship builder. The steel was thought to be the best available but the technology/knowledge of the time was not what it is today. While the steel was thought to be elastic (see below), and it may have been at room temperature, it apparently was brittle at lower temps. Or at least SOME of it was brittle at lower temps.
This is the problem with low grade steels. By modern standards the steel used would have been at the lower end of the quality scale.   Like leaded screw stock.

Dan

from http://www.titanichistoricalsociety.org/articles/brittle-steel.asp

Olympic and Titanic were built using Siemens-Martin formula steel plating throughout the shell and upper works. This type of steel was first used in the armed merchant cruisers, Teutonic and Majestic in 1889/90. This steel was high quality with good elastic properties, ideal for conventional riveting as well as the modern method (in 1912) of hydraulic riveting. Each plate was milled and rolled to exact tolerances and presented a huge material cost to both yard and ship owner. The steel was not a new type, as already stated, but shows that yard and owner only put material and equipment into these two giants that was tried and tested. Reports of Teutonic's and Majestic's hull condition 20 years after they entered service showed that both were in remarkable condition. The excellent properties of this steel and resistance to corrosion made it the natural choice for the new sisters.

He who dares not offend cannot be honest. Thomas Paine

Offline Keb

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #34 on: April 04, 2012, 04:25:44 PM »
The yield strength of 12L14 is a totally meaningless number when its used as a gun barrel.
12L14 when used as a gun barrel is brittle. Brittle is what makes the numbers meaningless. The cold rolling that makes the material brittle also increases its yield number. But they do not test for yield when subjected to internal pressure and brittle steels fail shock tests. Gun barrels are shock loaded.
ALL cold rolled steels are brittle this is why they cold roll them. Brittle steels, in general, machine easier (if anyone wants a demonstration turn some cold rolled on a lathe then anneal it then make some more cuts. It will be more difficult to cut.  While its possible to anneal 12L14 and make it more ductile this does not get rid of the high levels of Lead and Sulfur and Phosphorus which cause inclusions and flaws in the steel. This make the steel even if annealed more failure prone than a similar alloy without these metals added.
THEN we have the fact that the stuff is a cheap steel with little care taken in its manufacture compared to a certified quality steel. So its has things like fissures and inclusions etc etc.
We have to ask why would someone make a gun barrel from a material that the a steel maker, decades ago, stated was unsuitable and specifically stated that it should not be used when
Wrought iron? GOOD wrought iron is less likely to fail than cold rolled steel. The Springfield Rifle Muskets ALL have skelp welded iron barrels. Some were converted to 58 Berdan breechloaders. They are still a reliable barrel when in good shape.  Wrought iron is a very TOUGH material. It has sufficient strength for a ML barrel using round balls or light charges and a bullet like a Minie (the Springfields were proved with 280 gr of Musket Powder and a Minie spaced 2" off the powder IIRC).
This begs the question of why the Gov't used iron when steel was available. However, control of the alloy was pretty crude and it might be that fluctuations in alloy might make iron a better choice.
Low quality iron, and lots of barrels were made of low quality iron in the first 1/2 of the 19th century and beyond, was far weaker due to high levels of inclusions.
Cold rolled works well for many things, but its not good for tubes bearing internal pressure and shock loading.
Claims that the barrels never fail are simply false. Failures of 12L14 barrels, I am told, is why Douglas stopped making ML barrels. I know there were failures and I know they stopped making ML barrels. Douglas is not the only maker who have had barrel failures. Buts its something nobody wants to address.

Dan
As always, I struggle to understand what Dan has posted. I would like to know where this information comes from: "Claims that the barrels never fail are simply false. Failures of 12L14 barrels, I am told, is why Douglas stopped making ML barrels. I know there were failures and I know they stopped making ML barrels. Douglas is not the only maker who have had barrel failures. Buts its something nobody wants to address."
Is it facts?
Is it half truths?
Is it something Dan heard around some campfire some place?
Is it just Dan's belief?

I think before I can put any stock in Dan's post I need more than to see it posted on the wide world interweb with no substantiated proof of it being factual. The proof I see is to the opposite (I think) of what Dan said and that is the fact that many, many 12L14 barrels have been and are in service today. I've been around this game for 30+ years and have never seen nor heard of any barrels bursting from anything other than being improperly loaded. Just by posting that many have isn't worth the monitor image it shows up on. :/
This argument is at least as old as the Douglas law suit and has folks on both sides of the safety issue of using or not using 12L14. The only thing I see is the ones that are against it's use don't have any facts to back up their beliefs.

Daryl

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Re: Rice Barrels on the Forsyth Principal
« Reply #35 on: April 04, 2012, 05:13:18 PM »
We've seen both sides of the story, again so before this turns into another slug fest, I'm locking it.