Author Topic: Ambrose Lawing ?  (Read 9219 times)

Offline gibster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
Ambrose Lawing ?
« on: April 02, 2012, 06:07:31 AM »
This is a rifle that in my opinion was probably made by Ambrose Lawing of E. Tenn.  (You know what they say about opinions ;D)  The stock is Maple with no repairs that I can see.  All the hardware is iron.  The tang extends over the comb and the butt plate heel has some nice file treatment.  The barrel is straight, 13/16 X 42-inches long.  It is a .38 caliber.  I think that the drum/nipple has been replaced at some point.  Overall, a nice original condition E Tenn rifle.  If you want pictures of a particular area, let me know and I will post them.  Opinions as to who made the rifle are welcomed.












Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #1 on: April 02, 2012, 03:06:30 PM »
Wish I could be more help - it certainly looks like a Unicoi County area gun - really a nice example.  I asume this would likely be Lawing Sr.(?) I wish I had paid more attention to some of the detials on the few Lawings I have seen - one thing that is pretty distinctive on this gun is the way he carried the incised lines all the way back into the base of the tail of the cheek piece - I did not note that on the couple of Lawings I have seen -but then again I was not really looking for it either.  I don't recall him using that style entry pipe either, but then again no 2 of these guns are identical.  His cheekpices - and cheekpieces on well made guns in this region in general - usually are bold and well done like this one and have a bit more detail than some of the other mountain rifles - that, with the distinctinve slender, crisp architetcture and long over the comb tangs are some of the "trademarks" of Unicoi and neighboring counties, well up into the end of the 19th century. This rifle is a great example.

Guy

« Last Edit: April 02, 2012, 03:08:06 PM by G-Man »

Offline JTR

  • member 2
  • Hero Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 4351
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #2 on: April 02, 2012, 07:35:08 PM »
Gibster,
That's a really nice rifle in really great condition!

Here's the link to another Maybe Lawing. It's not signed, but the guy I bought it from, and the Library guys here seem to think it was made by him. There's some interesting similarities, and differences between these two guns.
But given that neither gun is signed, it won't you help you a bit in determining if your gun is a Ambrose Lawing either!  ;D

http://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=8921.0

John
John Robbins

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #3 on: April 02, 2012, 07:46:32 PM »
Its interesting... the front trigger is much like some Gillespie triggers in that it is very far forward in the bow.... Something about touching it off with the tip of your finger rather than sticking the whole first pad of the finger across the trigger... Hard to get a big fat finger in that space>??
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 978
  • F. & A.M. Helion #1; 3rd SFG(ABN)
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #4 on: April 02, 2012, 08:57:18 PM »
The stock closely follows the lines of my Lawing rifle, especially around the lock panel.  The guard and toe plate are identical to my 1871 dated Lawing.  It is a very nice rifle.  Thanks for posting the photos.
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #5 on: April 03, 2012, 06:15:54 PM »
I'm having a hard time with this Lawing rifle, considered a classic example of the Tennessee mountain rifle school, i.e. the front of the comb coming up and forming nearly perpendicular to the wrist, the tang going up and over the comb plus the long sweeping crescent shaped butt plate finishing it.  If you review the various books especially by Bill Ivey, great book by the way, I cannot see where there is a slow transformation of the longrifle as it progressed westward.  It’s almost like okay we’re in Tennessee now let’s make a longrifle unlike any other rifle built.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 06:39:04 PM by crawdad »

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #6 on: April 03, 2012, 06:26:09 PM »
I don't think you can approach Appalachian rifles with a concept of a clean and orderly evolutionary progress from some documented eastern longrifle style of the 1780s, through a series of steps and ending up at the type of rilfe you see being made in this case in the 1860-1900 era.  Setllement passed into the region early, but then moved on west pretty quickly as well.  And there is also the strong possibility that even in the earliest settlement times - beginning in the 1770-80 era, there were gunsmiths working under a very approach and circumstances from the traditional eastern gunmaking shops.

Guy

nosrettap1958

  • Guest
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #7 on: April 03, 2012, 06:44:09 PM »
Thanks Guy for the information, I may need to expand my library into more of the Appalachian Mountains.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2012, 06:49:16 PM by crawdad »

Offline G-Man

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2217
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #8 on: April 03, 2012, 07:07:20 PM »
There are a lot of mysteries when it comes to these rifles - just when you think you begin to see some sort of pattern or consistency that allows you to begin to understand how/when and from whom a certain local style evolved, a piece turns up that flips all these concepts over and makes you rethink everything.  While it is easy to see a progression from the work of the Beans and others in the 1830 era toward the later rifles from the same region by gunmakers like Lawing , we don't really know how early that general style began to appear.  Perhaps the biggest missing pieces of the puzzle are documented pieces by a few more of the gunmakers we know were working in the area in the 1770-1790 era.  Most of us would love to see what Russell Bean was making in the late 1780s and 1790s.  And while we tend to think of gunsmiths like Joseph Bogle bringing outside style influences into the region, which they of course did, it was not necessarily all one-way.  Even in the relatively early period before 1800, gunmakers moving into the region were also possibly equally influenced by a gunmaking culture and style prefrences that were already there in the mountain region and beyond.  I am not saying that they were making deep crescent skinny buttplates and over the comb tangs in the region that early,  but by 1790-1800 there might have already been some general style features unique to the region that were fairly different from what you would see on rifles being made in places like Salem, Winchester or points north. 

Guy

Bennypapa

  • Guest
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #9 on: April 03, 2012, 07:34:18 PM »
No opinion as to maker here but, DANG that rifle is in good shape.
How does the bore look?

Offline WElliott

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 593
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2012, 05:27:02 AM »
Gibster, I would agree with an attribution to Unicoi County, TN, and Ambrose Lawling is as good a maker attribution as any.
Wayne Elliott

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 978
  • F. & A.M. Helion #1; 3rd SFG(ABN)
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2012, 04:19:43 PM »
This rifle was made in 1871 at his Flag Pond, Tennessee shop by Ambrose Lawing for D.M. Hampton.
6'3" total length
57 1/4th inch barrel
Stamped "1871 Ambrose Lawing warranted for D.M. Hampton"







"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

Offline gibster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2012, 04:42:29 AM »
Thanks to all that added info on the rifle. 

Bennypapa - the bore is in good shape with strong rifling from the breech to the muzzle.

Sequatchir Rifle - That is a looooong barrel on your Ambrose Lawing rifle.  I can't tell from the photo's, does the tang on your rifle go over the comb?  Very nice rifle by the way.

Offline Bill of the 45th

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Gaylord, Michigan
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2012, 07:12:18 AM »
Gibby, are you bringing it to show and tell at the Norris Show.  Plan on being there all day on Friday.  Looking forward to getting my baby back.

Bill
Bill Knapp
Over the Hill, What Hill, and when did I go over it?

Offline gibster

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 554
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #14 on: April 06, 2012, 03:02:19 PM »
It will be there.  Can't think of a better place to get good info on a southern rifle than at that show.  Looking forward to seeing you and a host of others there.  Besides, I don't want to miss the BBQ ;D.

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #15 on: April 06, 2012, 04:14:33 PM »
Oh yeah..... BBQ!! And guns too.. Looking forward to it.
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming

Offline Sequatchie Rifle

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 978
  • F. & A.M. Helion #1; 3rd SFG(ABN)
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #16 on: April 06, 2012, 05:18:42 PM »
Gibster- The tang does not extend over the comb on this one.  But it does extend quite a bit.

I'll be at Norris with a couple of interesting guns that I want to share with everyone.

Thanks to all that added info on the rifle.  

Bennypapa - the bore is in good shape with strong rifling from the breech to the muzzle.

Sequatchir Rifle - That is a looooong barrel on your Ambrose Lawing rifle.  I can't tell from the photo's, does the tang on your rifle go over the comb?  Very nice rifle by the way.
« Last Edit: April 06, 2012, 05:20:55 PM by Sequatchie Rifle »
"We fight not for glory, nor riches nor honors, but for freedom alone, which no good man gives up except with his life.” Declaration of Arbroath, 1320

Offline Dennis Glazener

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 19487
    • GillespieRifles
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #17 on: April 06, 2012, 06:33:27 PM »
I am really going to miss the Norris show this year but neither of my two friends that travel with me and help share the costs are able to go this year. I thought seriously of going by myself but the cost of gas etc has increased so much that it just does not make economical sense to go. Plus we leave for Scotland/Ireland less than 3 weeks later and I need to save money to spend on that trip!
Dennis
"I never considered a difference of opinion in politics, in religion, in philosophy, as cause for withdrawing from a friend" - Thomas Jefferson

Offline Dr. Tim-Boone

  • Global Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *
  • Posts: 6538
  • I Like this hat!!
Re: Ambrose Lawing ?
« Reply #18 on: April 06, 2012, 09:48:46 PM »
We will miss you Dennis!!
De Oppresso Liber
Marietta, GA

Liberty is the only thing you cannot have unless you are willing to give it to others. – William Allen White

Learning is not compulsory...........neither is survival! - W. Edwards Deming