Critiquing contemporary work

[rich pierce]

Hey, I don't know if this belongs here or in Gun Building, but since I think it applies to accoutrements as well, I will start here.

I propose that when folks post their work on ALR forums they indicate if it is open for honest critique.  If they say nothing about being open for critique I guess we can assume that they are just saying, "hey, I built a rifle and am excited and wanted to show you all."

I think that for discussion to be meaningful, the work should be identified as to its origins; whether it is a contemporary fantasy piece, whether it is based partly or mostly on a specific school, or whether it is based on a particular original or group of originals.  This would be similar to classifying one's work for judging at Dixon's for example (don't go there; this is not about the judging at Dixon's, that topic will re-appear soon, I am sure). 

Those who post their work should realize that they could present their work to 6 different folks known to be fine builders, and receive different critiques from each.  It's necessary to sift through the comments as each "judge" can't help but think, "I would have done it THIS way if it was my project".  So we always get a little individual flavor in critiques.

If folks are loading on the attaboys and you see something not right, don't be shy is my advice.  The discussion should be about the work, not the maker and polite folk should not feel they are protecting someone by insisting something is marvelous. BACK UP YOUR STATEMENTS and keep it about the longrifle.  If you have prejudices ("I hate Bedfords" for example) then don't comment on a bedford as a "stupid build" just comment on where it is or is not a fine Bedford.

These ideas above do not reflect a discussion or consensus of moderators; they are my ideas. 

Please share your ideas about critiquing contemporary work: how it should be done and why it is necessary.

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

I agree with all you have said Rich!  I want to emphasize that critiquing a rifle is not using terns like stupid, childish and other judgmental terms that might lead to a fight on the school yard!   Descriptive language has to do with location, length, thickness etc.... something we can measure, see, understand and do something about on the next gun. I think you can also share your personal likes and dislikes about a gun ...everybody has an opinion about art. Don't try to hide "shots" at other people in clever language. I for one will lock or delete those kind of comments....

Argue all you want... Here is what I think and why!!!   Not "You are ..............!"  Now a little humor and poking fun,,,usually best if aimed at self ..... can help keep it civil on the web.

[Mike Brooks]

I agree with your post nearly 100%. If a fellow just wants to post his gun to show off his latest work and wants all attaboys then he should not request a critique. But, I highly recommend a critique as you'll never learn anything with a bunch of attaboys and all round back slapping.
 As I turned out to be "The Bad Guy" in the latest thread I hope some of you will review that thread and note I didn't critique that rifle untill the builder said all critiques were welcome. Even after that statement I asked approval from the moderator. I thought I gave a fair critique with out bludgeoning the builder too badly. I could have continued the critique in more detail but I figured I had covered the basics.
 Generally I don't make any comment about a posted gun unless it really blows wind up my skirt.

[lafreniere]

This looks more like an attempt to make up for bad behavior.
I've been reading the ALR for years. I've read many thoughtful critiques good and bad.
What we just witnessed was an individual who was trying to humiliate another.
Now he's being contrite and high minded as if he was performing a service.

[nosrettap1958]

Mike all you did was say what a whole lot of us were thinking or suggesting that's all. I don't mind someone showing off a little about his work, and it is from the pictures a beautiful rifle, but I dislike having my nose rubbed in it, especially since my rifle could clobber his in a fair fight at 100 yards.

[rich pierce]

This looks more like an attempt to make up for bad behavior.
I've been reading the ALR for years. I've read many thoughtful critiques good and bad.
What we just witnessed was an individual who was trying to humiliate another.
Now he's being contrite and high minded as if he was performing a service.

This post, which says nothing about the longrifle but is instead directed at judging a person, is not productive.

[rich pierce]

No you didn't Mike at least I didn't think so, I don't mind someone showing off a little about his work but I dislike having my nose rubbed in it, especially since my rifle could clobber his in a fair fight at 100 yards.

This post, which says nothing about the longrifle, but is instead directed at judging a person, is not productive.

LETS NOT GO THROUGH ALL THIS AGAIN.  TALK ABOUT THE LONGRIFLE, CRITIQUING IT AND NOT ABOUT RECENT DUSTUPS ON THIS FORUM, PLEASE

[Blacksmoke]

I agree with everyone so far on this thread EXCEPT Mr. Brooks!

[Mike Brooks]

This looks more like an attempt to make up for bad behavior.
I've been reading the ALR for years. I've read many thoughtful critiques good and bad.
What we just witnessed was an individual who was trying to humiliate another.
Now he's being contrite and high minded as if he was performing a service.

Not at all in my opinion. If you're going to arrogantly post a gun here with a gigantic ego and continually tout it as a "Masterpiece" when it clearly isn't you're more than likely going to get your balloon busted  in a big way if you open  it up for a critique. It was the  arrogant, over inflated presentation that irked and I responded in kind. Come to find out by the end of the thread it didn't qualify as a "Masterpiece" at all according to the organizations own rules......
 Besides, I have never had a reputation of being overly sensitive. Call em like you see em, in the end it makes the world go round much smoother.

[Mike Brooks]

I agree with everyone so far on this thread EXCEPT Mr. Brooks!

As is your right.

[Mike Brooks]

This looks more like an attempt to make up for bad behavior.
I've been reading the ALR for years. I've read many thoughtful critiques good and bad.
What we just witnessed was an individual who was trying to humiliate another.
Now he's being contrite and high minded as if he was performing a service.

Not at all in my opinion. If you're going to arrogantly post a gun here with a gigantic ego and continually tout it as a "Masterpiece" when it clearly isn't you're more than likely going to get your balloon busted  in a big way if you open  it up for a critique. It was the  arrogant, over inflated presentation that irked and I responded in kind. Come to find out by the end of the thread it didn't qualify as a "Masterpiece" at all according to the organizations own rules......
 Besides, I have never had a reputation of being overly sensitive. Call em like you see em, in the end it makes the world go round much smoother.

This post has merit also in reference to critiquing contemporary work. I have read Dr. Tim's recommendation of civility and along with that there is a certain way to present ones work  with some degree of humility which doesn't !$@! off a bunch of members.

[nosrettap1958]

All right no further comment, I said my piece.

[JDK]

 Besides, I have never had a reputation of being overly sensitive. Call em like you see em, in the end it makes the world go round much smoother.

I have told people that know me that I'm a sensitive person........and they always laugh.

[lafreniere]

This looks more like an attempt to make up for bad behavior.
I've been reading the ALR for years. I've read many thoughtful critiques good and bad.
What we just witnessed was an individual who was trying to humiliate another.
Now he's being contrite and high minded as if he was performing a service.

This post, which says nothing about the longrifle but is instead directed at judging a person, is not productive.

Please let me explain. The topic of this thread is critiquing, it is unfair to criticize my reply for not being about
"the longrifle". The point I was making is that everyday there are positive examples of all manners of work being criticized. The problem here is in an individual behaving badly. In the early days of the "masterpiece" debate Mr Glazener warned Mr Brooks to knock it off, sometime later that post disappeared. It may be unpopular but I don't think it was unfair of me to direct attention to the individual's behavior, and then what did he do, but follow it up with another negative post about Mr Toenjes. I think I'll just go back to reading only

[Dr. Tim-Boone]

Here is another little cue......  Talk to each other and not ..........about each other. It will hopefully help us stay civil.

The professional critiquing of guns etc. is a big part of the value of the site. We do not want to make it a pain to do so. We also dont want this to be a place where people get critiqued.   For $250 and hour I can help you do that elsewhere..

[Robert Wolfe]

I have built and posted three long guns here and each time asked for and received thoughtful and helpful critiques. For a beginner like me who wants to learn this has been a tremendous help. I thank all who are willing to take the time and effort to comment on work presented here. While I appreciated the "attaboys," the real critiques are what I wanted as they help me do better the next time.

[Mike Brooks]

I have built and posted three long guns here and each time asked for and received thoughtful and helpful critiques. For a beginner like me who wants to learn this has been a tremendous help. I thank all who are willing to take the time and effort to comment on work presented here. While I appreciated the "attaboys," the real critiques are what I wanted as they help me do better the next time.

Excellent, that's how it's supposed to work. What's more, maybe we should all critique are own guns on occasion, I know I'd be the most severe critique of my own work.
 

[Jim Kibler]

Well, I've been away while most of this has been going on.  I agree that if critique is acceptable, it should be indicated.  Otherwise, this can create awkward situations if the gun is being sold etc.  This type of process is common on others sites I visit. 

With regard to the "masterpiece" I think Mike has summed things up very well.  I think what he shared needed to be said and I applaud him for it.

Jim

[bob in the woods]

A long time ago, I posted a gun here. I asked for opinions etc, and the only one who responded was Mike Brooks. I am grateful that he did. [ BTW, he didn't respond all that positively ! ]   I have a thick skin, and want to learn.  I can't stand not getting an honest opinion of my work. It doesn't help anyone. Especially someone who takes direction from my work, and continues the design errors./mistakes.  If you post an apple, while calling it an orange, you should be called on it. Otherwise, what is the point ?

[westerner]

Quote from the "masterpiece" thread.


Quote
As far as ALR architecture, They all look perty much the same to me.  I dont have a clue.
Well then, there you go......
Stick around, you may learn something through all of this debate.

Probably not Mike. I been around a long time. Not much interest in ALR architecture.  For me, ignorance is bliss, lol.


             Joe. 

           

[bob in the woods]

Joe, no disrespect intended, but.....why are you here   You declare no interest in the basics of ALR.

[Fullstock longrifle]

I was wondering the same thing.   

Frank

[westerner]

I have no interest in studying the architecture of ALRs.  I joined this forum  because I read threads about other types of rifles besides the ALRs (long barreled flintlock rifles).       

My main interest is single shot breech loading target rifles and percussion target rifles, slug guns and picket rifles.

One of these days I may purchase a nice flintlock rifle. It wont matter if the architecture doesnt quite match our modern ideas of whats right and whats not or what was.

I really appreciate the time and skill someone puts into a project whether it be a masterpiece rifle or a powder horn. Thats why I'm here. This is a great place to be and I'm staying.

        Joe.

[bob in the woods]

Joe, with a statement like that, it kind of begged the question !!  I never said you weren't welcome 

[westerner]

Thanks Bob, yeah, mighta over did it a little but I meant it.   


          Joe.