Author Topic: Using protest period yes or no?  (Read 6600 times)

Offline Roger Fisher

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Using protest period yes or no?
« on: April 24, 2012, 01:40:25 AM »
To all you folks out there that donate your  time, effort and funds to running ML shoots,  I refer now to line/paper shoots not really to w walks.  We have all seen errors occur in math, scoring, switching shooter numbers etc....  Sooo, what to do about it?   Quite a few clubs (even for 1 day shoots) have a protest period after all the scoring is done and totaled announced so every one knows it is occuring.  Said protest period gives every shooter a chance to look over the scoring totaling etc etc.  so they have a chance to question where they stand and errors can be corrected b/4 the winners, and placers are announced out loud and $ or prizes handed out.   By the same instance some clubs do NOT use a protest period and simply call out the winners and placers and some do not even state the scores.  This leaves some shooters dissatisfied and/or P------ off.  Which in turn damages the host club.   I'm asking do you use such a protest period?  It may be a good idea.  

BTW Do you as a shooter tally your own scores for the shoot so you have a basis for protesting in the first place.     I neglected that recently and do believe I lost a first place because of it.  (The club used no protest period)
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 05:50:25 PM by Roger Fisher »

Offline Long Ears

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #1 on: April 24, 2012, 04:22:08 AM »
Roger, I have shot in some pretty high dollar shoots and the best way I have seen is for people to sign their targets after the score keeper has totaled. Any protest must be settled then and there before prizing. With most of the club shoots I attend we are not playing for a new Lincoln Town Car and mistakes are made. I just live with it. Some people don't handle a protest well and in most cases it is a simple mistake. Our group the trash talk is so bad the weak at heart don't want to be in the lead. I have however witnessed people cheating and will swear to their honesty. I was squadded with an old boy who had his Grand Daughter shooting in the Junior division at the Pacific Primitive Rendezvous. She would shoot and the old man would yell I heard it ring when 4 crack riflemen on the squad never heard a thing. Come to find out she won most everyday she shot. That sure sets a good example and is sad for the other junior shooters that gave it an honest go. There again, Carma will settle things someday. Just my thoughts, Bob

Paul Griffith

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2012, 02:51:12 PM »
Some of the chunk matches have protest period & others don't. In this form of shootin the protest time is to catch mistakes in scoring or entering of numbers into computers & so forth.  Generally speaking it's understood that if you are crabbing about a few thousanths you will be asked to go away. Major problems are what you are looking for. At the York one year I had a .095 spider that was entered as 1.095 So I go from 10th place to winning the thing. 

This last year at Coons hog shoot there was no protest period & there were some problems coming out of the scoring progam. A few minutes would have taken care of things nicely.

Yes vote here.


Offline Don Getz

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2012, 03:37:18 PM »
A protest period is helpful.    One year at the York shoot I was shooting a pretty good string.  Was shooting next to my
son John, and we were keeping kind of a record of our shots, and I had  him, or so I thought.   When they started to call
the winners, he went about five places before me.........I was somewhat puzzled.   Got my targets, and they did good in
scoring.........gave me a "1.066" instead of ".066", which is what the shot measured.   When you are shooting down in the
5" to 6" strings, 1" will really make a difference.   But I still had a good time, wish I could do it again.......Don

Daryl

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2012, 06:25:09 PM »
Neither of our line shoots - chunk nor the Alberta shoot have a protest period. You shoot your targets, pull them down, look at them and hand them in.  We've made mistakes (but not in chunk scoreing -  ;D)- but they get seem to get settled out.  People can get their targets back after the council fire, if them want them. The scores are listed on them.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2012, 06:25:42 PM by Daryl »

Vomitus

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2012, 07:05:51 PM »
  Daryls,
  Just so our Southern brethren know, the "Alberta" shoot is a line shoot with critter targets set at 25, 50, and 75 yards. Five shots at each, timed.  20 minutes per string of five. I'm not big on paper shoots,but this one is fun. Our own Chrispy cleans up in the smoothbore class! I've managed a 3rd,SB.

Candle Snuffer

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2012, 02:20:27 PM »
I'm sure our local club has a protest period wrote into our rules, but I don't ever recall anyone ever using it.  I'm pretty sure there is a protest period at our annual state muzzle loading shoot, but again I don't know if it has ever been used?  I would guess that it probably has, but I don't know for sure?     

Daryl

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2012, 02:54:26 PM »
When I shot SFC and BCRA full bore matches, there was a protest period, of course, but I've not seen one at a BP shoot. Ours are mostly tail walks.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #8 on: April 25, 2012, 05:03:14 PM »
When I shot SFC and BCRA full bore matches, there was a protest period, of course, but I've not seen one at a BP shoot. Ours are mostly tail walks.
Tail Walks ::) Worthwhile driving/flying up there to get?? ;D   Sorry, the devil made me do it :D

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #9 on: April 25, 2012, 05:15:59 PM »
Down in this part of the world, these Pennsylvania Deutscha folks surely want our/ their scores correctly tabulated and the prizes they won correctly handed out.  Last year alone it cost me the cost of a ham at one of our  shoots and the cost of a lb of Goex to keep 2 different shooters happy/satisfied.  That was the easy way out after prizes were awarded and the shooters were gone.  One occured since we failed to use a protest period b/4 prizes were awarded, and the other was because a new guy at our shoot failed to say a word during the protest period and waited til later , his score and shooter number was switched.... I came up with the gelt to keep things peaceful... ::)

Some clubs down here use a wailing wall set up listing every shooter number and each score.  This solves problems before they arise.  Said scores are up dated twice daily during 2 or 3 day shoots.  Another club lays out a computer printout listing the same as above each evening so the shooters can check.  

My vote (I'll vote 10 times or more as in Chicago) for the protest period.   It sure makes things easier on the folks in the scoring shanty and other responsible people there.   How  about more input on this....?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2012, 07:45:59 PM by Roger Fisher »

zimmerstutzen

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2012, 05:52:36 PM »
I remember reading protest rules at many shoots back in the 1980's.   Unlike many shooters, I only competed in a few matches and rarely had cause to worry about it. (Didn't win many)    When I had good days and won or placed in matches that I had entered, it usually made no difference. 

Twice I was glad for the rule.   At one of the large shoots, my pistol target gained an extra hole after being placed on the scorer's table.  (five ragged edged holes with lead halos and one very defined hole with no lead halo, looked like a pen had been pushed through the paper.)      At another, the scorer made a mistake in adding.   

I also saw an infrequent heated discussion over whether the hole in the target was an 8 or a 9 and folks getting hot about whether the center of the ball was over the edge of the line etc.

   

Daryl

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #11 on: April 27, 2012, 12:38:30 AM »
Edge of the hole is my preferred method of scoring - much easier for everyone - however centre of the hole for ML matches dates back to the string measures and can make for problems, as noted.

Thankfully, the Alberta boys score SFC (Shooting Federation of Canada) rules and score edge of hole.  It gives the smoothbores (and large bore shooters) a couple extra points, I'm sure.  If you want to take advantage of that scoring, merely shoot a .75.

Offline SCLoyalist

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #12 on: April 27, 2012, 02:17:41 AM »
Scorers are often under time pressure trying to get a lot of targets scored in a timely manner, so mistakes happen.   (And, I have seen a few scorers who I suspect had pretty modest math skills making addition errors a real risk.)    I vote in favor of a protest period.   Now, if a competitor doesn't take advantage of the period, he shouldn't be able to ask for a review of his or competitiors' targets once the period ends.   A 'you snooze, you lose' policy ought to apply once the ribbons or prizes are announced.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #13 on: April 27, 2012, 04:46:48 PM »
Scorers are often under time pressure trying to get a lot of targets scored in a timely manner, so mistakes happen.   (And, I have seen a few scorers who I suspect had pretty modest math skills making addition errors a real risk.)    I vote in favor of a protest period.   Now, if a competitor doesn't take advantage of the period, he shouldn't be able to ask for a review of his or competitiors' targets once the period ends.   A 'you snooze, you lose' policy ought to apply once the ribbons or prizes are announced.
I fully agree with your response, however 'we' bend over backwards to pull shooters in to our monthly shoots that we do more than we should (sometimes) to make sure every shooter leaves happy and comes back again.....I agree also that a 'protest' period before the awards/prizes are handed out can be a headache preventer.

Offline Roger Fisher

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #14 on: April 28, 2012, 01:14:51 AM »
Thanks to all that responded to this.... I feel this is important and my suggestions to all good folks our there that involve themselves in helping to run line shoots follow:

     Make the shooters responsible for putting their shooter number on the paper targets.....(less work for mother that way.  And speeds up the line of shooters buying targets .  Remind the shooters during the shoot to make sure their shooter number is on their targets...

      Have the shooters score their own targets and offer help at the shanty if help is needed..Suggest the careful use of the overlay laid over another identical target. Use NMLRA scoring rules (center of the ball on or touching the line).  Scores will be checked.

       At one day shoots and all scoring done and all targets are in.  Use a protest period where the winner and placer's scores are highlighted on a master sheet or board and make sure that every shooter (still present) know that the protest period is happening.  Including the folks in the parking lot........

        At 2 or more day shoots have a wailing wall updated at least once or more each day, so If a shooter sees a problem with his or her score they can then go to the shanty (scoring ) and respectfully ask that they pull the problem target/targets and check them out.

         It was mentioned that each shooter should be required to sign his target b/4 the range officer turns it or them in.  This still leaves a ton of possible screw ups possible. And holds up the next relay. 

         A word or two on past experiences.   Several years ago a club was doing their scoring in a shanty with no windows and lit via a gas light....(since changed)
I happened to be aware that my 6 bull was in question regards the score (the wailing wall again)  I was shy an X that I was 'sure' made it....The scorers ended up plopping my target on a auto hood in the sunlight over another target and lo and behold my X was there. I ended up with a first in the agg and a Getz Barrel of my choice...   (We would kill for a Getz)

         At another 2 day shoot in Penna (yrs ago) a 6 bull target was used as part of the agg and they decided to score ALL 6 bulls.   The scorers failed to count a nine of mine and a Getz barrel was awarded to another shooter.  Notice no protest period was used....  All vehicles were headed for the exits and after the prizes were handed out everyone headed out in a cloud of dust.  I hit them up about my score.  Yes keep track of your scores boys and girls!!  They discovered their mistake then.
After many weeks passed the guy that got the barrel finally shipped to to me.   (I expected it to show up in a cigar box.  Sooo here again we see how valuable a protest period and wailing wall can be. 

          I would love to hear that all clubs running line shoots would consider these suggestions..... The greater the number of shooters the greater the chances of errors of all sorts.... :)      Thats my story and I'm sticking to it.

          MORE, more.....




     

Offline LH

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #15 on: May 01, 2012, 07:11:03 PM »
I've been shooting in matches in several states for over 30 years and dont remember a match where there was not a protest period.  Its just a good practice to clear up any mistakes before awards.  Crybabies and cheaters are going to disrupt things somehow with or without a protest period.  They need to be dealt with just like safety issues.  Swift and direct.  I always wonder who those idiots think they're cheating???  If a medal or a plaque is that important,  they should just go buy one. 

Offline Kermit

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #16 on: May 02, 2012, 09:35:13 PM »
Where do I go to protest my lousy lack-of-skill shooting, huh? THAT'S what needs fixin'. ;)
"Anything worth doing is worth doing slowly." Mae West

Candle Snuffer

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Re: Using protest period yes or no?
« Reply #17 on: May 02, 2012, 09:39:32 PM »
Where do I go to protest my lousy lack-of-skill shooting, huh? THAT'S what needs fixin'. ;)

I've been looking for that same place for over 35 years Kermit, and haven't found it yet! ;D